Questions for white people: what is the problem with "taking the knee"

[Flayn]

1. What is the problem with taking the knee
2. How would you prefer athletes protest racism

I am a regular poster, under a changed name and speak 2nd language English - I know the passive aggressiveness some posters adopt for this topic.

piggywaspushed
Any actual evidence for that?

Ben and Jerry’s aren’t taking the knee.

I am not saying virtue signalling doesn’t exist. I am saying I don’t see that footballers taking the knee are doing so for that reason.

If they don't object to kick it out or 'arm holding' (not aware of that one so I guess not very impactful) then that takes us back to the original question

What exactly is it about taking the knee specifically that is 'divisive' or 'gets people riled up' I have no idea

-Association with George Floyd (kneeling) and BLM causes a shame reaction?
-Something about this 'subservient' association of kneeling although the black people are the ones kneeling and as such allegedly being 'subservient' so don't get that

As I said upthread it's hardly as though black power salutes at the Olympics got a better reaction so I do not believe it is the specific gesture. I think it is not wanting to be confronted with the painful reality of racism.

Secondbellini
You specifically said that there was nothing wrong with ‘ virtue signalling’

covoidofallhumanity
Yet loads of people have told you why people object to it.

@Secondbellini I don’t see it as a signal saying “I am a great person!”, it’s “I am showing everyone I recognise & agree”.
Disclaimer for the nitpickers: not the only way to address it, but it is one of the most visible/attention-grabbing options, and you can still carry out your other less-visible, more-active-or-vocal efforts. As many of these figures do.

Evtheria, but then it isn’t virtue signalling. That isn’t what virtue signalling means.

Virtue signalling is a contemporary phrase referring to moral grandstanding i.e. using a moral cause for self promotion.

I don’t see the footballers are virtue signalling anyway.

@Smileyaxolotl1

Tedmullins

How many times!
It is associated with a Marxist organisation who want to destroy capitalism, destroy the nuclear family and are anti-police. You may be fine with those things, many are not.

None of those things are true, I've even posted links to debunk it. They are not a 'Marxist' (not that there would be anything wrong with that as at least it's not Fascist) organisation, they do not want to 'destroy' the nuclear family (they do want to see more acceptance of rainbow families), and they are anti-police systemic racism, not anti police itself. You are repeating debunked far right talking points.

‘You specifically said that there was nothing wrong with ‘ virtue signalling’’

No I didn’t! What are you talking about?

No problem with passive gestures such as these.

@Smileyaxolotl1

Tedmullins

How many times!
It is associated with a Marxist organisation who want to destroy capitalism, destroy the nuclear family and are anti-police. You may be fine with those things, many are not.

These things sound like they’d greatly improve society. They’re not malicious aims. Capitalism keeps the poor, poor and makes the rich richer. How many threads pop up on here about not being able to afford a house? Wouldn’t it be great if wealth was fairly distributed throughout society so having a secure home wasn’t a reward only the “hard working” deserve?

Destroying the nuclear family - I’m not aware they’ve actively called for this but the nuclear family isn’t the only way to live is it? Again, what a nice society we’d have if being single, being in a same sex relationship, being non-monogamous, living in a community with friends etc were all held in the same importance. How many people are on here depressed and hopeless because society makes them feel a failure if they haven’t coupled up?

They’re not anti-police. Defund the police means that instead of funding police, fund community initiatives like better mental health care and community centres for teenagers. Several former gang members have said in the press that the closure of youth centres in deprived areas is a direct cause of teens getting caught up in gang life because there’s nothing else for them to do, and nowhere for them to meet mentors. It’s about preventative social initiatives that reduce crime (and then there’s the whole issue of the disproportionately violent and heavy handed treatment of black people by police). If people actually educated themselves about what things meant rather than believing a reactionary spectator article they’d see it’s not the bogeyman out to corrupt society that they think it is.

Neondreams you can lie and lie and quote critical race theory from the disgustingly divisive Kendi all you want, BLM leaders described themselves as trained Marxists and the UK website expressly stated their desires. Not to mention all of the bullying, rioting and Violence done in its name in the USA.
You support all these things and that’s up to you but many don’t - it doesn’t make anyone racist.

@Secondbellini

Evtheria, but then it isn’t virtue signalling. That isn’t what virtue signalling means.

Virtue signalling is a contemporary phrase referring to moral grandstanding i.e. using a moral cause for self promotion.

I don’t see the footballers are virtue signalling anyway.

'virtue signalling' is simply a far right buzzword against any action that is seen as 'leftist'. Anyone being in favour of marriage equality? They are VIRTUE SIGNALLERS! People against racism? LEFTIST VIRTUE SIGNALLERS! People who care about immigrants? LEFTIST VIRTUE SIGNALLERS! People who are anti-Muslim bashing? LEFTIST VIRTUE SIGNALLERS!

Basically, the term 'virtue signaller' simply is a right wing/far right wing term to attack anyone who believes in equality. It has never really been about action, it's simply a right/far right political buzzword. The term in itself really doesn't mean anything. It's basically used as a political slur. At least on social media.

Taking the knee does not make you a communist. That's a pretty poor excuse for being against it.

Mind you Tory MPs were against funding free school meals for poor kids in the holidays because essentially poor people need to sort themselves out and are all scrounges and addicts. I don't happen to agree. I believe in the welfare state and in the states that probably would make me tantamount to a communist.

People get upset about BLM calls to defund the police. Why is that so ridiculous? They don't want anarchy they are just questioning whether a police force that is institutionally racist and one of whose officers was just convicted of murder should receive such unquestioning support and money or whether investing some of that money into grassroots crime prevention and being 'tough on the causes of crime' isn't a better idea. If that makes me a Marxist for agreeing with that then so be it.

I haven't read much about 'calls to dismantle the nuclear family' but in a US context where right wing religious zealots are against gay marriage and blame black single mums for all the ills of the world then aren't they just sticking up for the rights of single parents and saying there is more than one way to be a family?

People need to read with some intelligence and appreciation of (US) context before condemning.

Defunding the police is anti police though. We have already had massive cuts to police budgets and it is having an impact on the service they deliver.

@TedMullins

Nobody who has a problem with taking the knee has articulated a reason for it that isn’t racist or a ridiculous straw man whipped up by the right wing press. The very fact people think a gesture that signals fighting racism is political or divisive is inherently, blatantly, screamingly racist! “Yes please fight racism but only in the way I, a white person, deep acceptable.”

and its people like you with your racist accusations that are the reason why i say fuck the lot of it , so im racist because i dont agree with taking the sodding knee right o then

Tedmullins

That is some impressive goal post moving there…
From ‘they never said those things’
to
‘They may have but these are good things’
Yes far left politics worked brilliantly in Russia and China didn’t it. Killed far more people than fascism ever did but don’t let that worry you.

@Smileyaxolotl1

Neondreams you can lie and lie and quote critical race theory from the disgustingly divisive Kendi all you want, BLM leaders described themselves as trained Marxists and the UK website expressly stated their desires. Not to mention all of the bullying, rioting and Violence done in its name in the USA. You support all these things and that’s up to you but many don’t - it doesn’t make anyone racist.

I quoted more people than Kendi, the only one who is lying and lying is you, and you are exposing yourself as a racist ever so clearly while doing so. If you lie, I will call you out, you won't get away with it. And you have lied, and lied and lied, and in a couple of cases, outrighted lied on the spot.

You will be called out. So fair warning. But you have exposed yourself far more than I ever could. Congratulations.

Neon dreams
Find one example where I have lied.

Exactly! @Secondbellini - I don’t actually view it as “virtue signalling” . But many accuse taking the knee of being just that, and will throw the phrase around often, which undermines it and distracts from the further efforts elsewhere. Upthread it was a bit of a claiming of/retaliation to this ‘insult’.

neon dreams
And I also challenge you to find anything racist I have said. Just because you support violent, bullying organisations which cause division you think everyone else should and they are racist if they don’t.
None of it helps black people at all.

@Smileyaxolotl1

Tedmullins

That is some impressive goal post moving there…
From ‘they never said those things’
to
‘They may have but these are good things’
Yes far left politics worked brilliantly in Russia and China didn’t it. Killed far more people than fascism ever did but don’t let that worry you.

Ah here we go, the classic Soviet comeback. It was only a matter of time. Communism as a philosophy doesn’t advocate for a dictatorship. Again, you might want to educate yourself about what Marxism is actually saying. Funny how nobody ever mentions modern countries with socialist policies that are beneficial for their society and thriving. Look at evil Scandinavia and New Zealand, people being sent to the gulags and dying in their thousands over there.

@Smileyaxolotl1

Neon dreams Find one example where I have lied.

It is associated with a Marxist organisation who want to destroy capitalism, destroy the nuclear family and are anti-police.

Now find one where I have lied, instead of posting the FACTS as I have.

@CovoidOfAllHumanity

Taking the knee does not make you a communist. That's a pretty poor excuse for being against it.

Mind you Tory MPs were against funding free school meals for poor kids in the holidays because essentially poor people need to sort themselves out and are all scrounges and addicts. I don't happen to agree. I believe in the welfare state and in the states that probably would make me tantamount to a communist.

People get upset about BLM calls to defund the police. Why is that so ridiculous? They don't want anarchy they are just questioning whether a police force that is institutionally racist and one of whose officers was just convicted of murder should receive such unquestioning support and money or whether investing some of that money into grassroots crime prevention and being 'tough on the causes of crime' isn't a better idea. If that makes me a Marxist for agreeing with that then so be it.

I haven't read much about 'calls to dismantle the nuclear family' but in a US context where right wing religious zealots are against gay marriage and blame black single mums for all the ills of the world then aren't they just sticking up for the rights of single parents and saying there is more than one way to be a family?

People need to read with some intelligence and appreciation of (US) context before condemning.

and when they did the chaz eperiment in seattle after george floyds death , a black man was shot and lo and behold , the ambulance and police could not get through to help the guy because of all the barricades and protesters and the next thing there was the moaning that he was left to potentially die , chaz was supported by blm if i recall rightly , they want to defund the police and do without them untill they suddenly need them / the complaining will start they werent helped .

Tedmullins
Are you trying to say that New Zealand isn’t a capitalist country? You leftists really are ridiculous.