Questions for white people: what is the problem with "taking the knee"

[Flayn]

1. What is the problem with taking the knee
2. How would you prefer athletes protest racism

I am a regular poster, under a changed name and speak 2nd language English - I know the passive aggressiveness some posters adopt for this topic.

The FA were quite clear what the gesture means and tried to extract it from the political organisation in the US. My issue is the dogwhistle of distraction that gets blown e.g 'Marxists!' 'Dangerous communists' by the media ..despite these deliberate statements. The idea that is all the FA and players are doing in relation to anti racism has somehow also been perpetuated and accepted.

The FA statement alluded to the long history of taking the knee...the symbolism can actually be traced back to the 17th/18th century.

Neondreams.

I’m not being disingenuous at all. Racism has always been about treating people nastily or insulting them do their race.
If someone calls me a ‘white birch’ that is a racist act.

Just a general question. When did signalling virtue become a 'bad' thing?

When it became an end in itself. When it became more important than action. When it is a show of virtue not virtue itself. It is not a new thing cf the widow's mite.

People who want gestures against racism kept out of sports/off the field... Do you think these athletes are only experiencing racism on their own time, when they’re not in kit? They’re getting it off spectators and ‘fans’ of their job, sometimes during the match itself, why shouldn’t they address the world for a minute or two when those very eyes are upon them? It would be wonderful if race was kept out of sports!

The fact you feel the message (this message of the many we are bombarded with, of the many that are snuck stealthily into our homes and wallets!) is being forced upon you says it all, it would be laughable if it weren’t so bloody grim.

The tannoy isn’t demanding that the audience take the knee, but don’t expect the players not to. Avert your eyes if it pains you so.

I agree that taking the knee is activism by that definition and it certainly has a cost in terms of public criticism, maybe even loss of sponsorship deals etc

The particular gesture doesn't especially matter to me. I think black people can't win on that one. When John Carlos and Tommie Smith did a black power salute at the 1968 Olympics they were condemned for it being an aggressive gesture and 'like a Nazi salute' and it ended their careers to boot. Saluting is too aggressive, kneeling is too subservient. It's going to get criticism whatever they do and that is somewhat the point. It is the meaning of the act and not the act itself so if you object to it then you are objecting to people protesting against racism.

Hi there,
We have received many reports about the personal attacks and goading on this thread and have correspondingly made many deletions.
Please could we ask for it to stop, as it endangers the thread entirely.

Its meaningless! Its just a "fashionable woke" thing to do at the moment that people do because they are afraid they will be branded as racist if they don't. Its an act of subservience! Education is the only way to stamp out racism!

Taking the knee is political. Football and politics have no place being mixed together like this.
Unfortunately due to some very unpleasant and bullying mob yob like behaviour, blm has become somewhat tainted.
I do recall seeing a’ burn, loot,murder’ reference. I also recall seeing mobs of people bullying victims eating their dinner to raise their arm in support of blm. And those who refused ( as is their right) were then bullied and threatened and coerced by those very same people. Not something I would want to be a part of.
You cannot wipe out history. It has happened. It is past. What is important is what , if anything, we learn from it and how we change and /or adapt our actions/thinking after the fact. Bullying people is not the way to do it. Defacing public buildings and statues (whether you agree or not) is also not the way to do it. Looting buildings and threading people to agree with you is ALSO not the way to do it. It’s not just ‘white people’ who need to learn adapt or change. It’s all of us. And I know I will be totally slated for this, however , if you have to put a colour in front of the statement ‘... lives matter’ then that makes you the racist. All lives matter. You can’t wipe out white people for actions taken hundreds of years ago by unpleasant uneducated people who happened to be white. That doesn’t automatically make the white people of today racist. It’s about time all the bs stopped. Let’s accept we are all human and get on with each other as a species , rather than a ‘race’. I’ve not got time for virtue signalling taking the knee. I am not subservient and would never do so. And you can’t threaten and bully me into it either. I have managed to live my entire life without being racist and don’t need to be ‘educated’ and forced into an action which doesn’t hold the meaning originally intended anymore.

I think this thread probably will get zapped and I think for Mumsnets sake maybe it should. Disappointing.

@Flayn

1. What is the problem with taking the knee

1. How would you prefer athletes protest racism

I am a regular poster, under a changed name and speak 2nd language English - I know the passive aggressiveness some posters adopt for this topic.

This shouldn't be a question for white people only, because that suggests all white people think the same but:

• racism,
• not caring enough about racism
• ignorance of racial issues
• any permutation of the above

OP I am hugely in favour of taking a knee and of any interventions, symbolic uses of images or actions, or anything else that fights this disgusting ignorant blight on our world. Racism disgusts me in all its forms.

@mustlovegin

Racism had got much, much worse in this country before the BLM protests I'm afraid to say

Can you give examples of how it got so widespread that the BLM protests 'needed' to take place here?

I can give you many personal examples ...you'll forgive me for not wanting to share those experiences on this thread.

There has been a lot of analysis done by organisations such.as The Runnymede Trust. Not hard to find yes the reporting of racist hate crimes has got easier BUT that does not totally excuse the rise in racist hate crimes by such a large amount since 2013. Many many formal reports as well as anecdotal stories from the black community , like mine that never end up getting reported thin end of the wedge.

I have no problem with it, and it was lovely to see all players at the Euros final on Sunday partake.

The issue in itself with racism is people taking the knee, and high profile people publicly condemning racist behaviour is that it doesn't solve the problem we have, it just pays lip service, almost as if we don't know what to do but we need to do something. The racist behaviour that emerged of the euros final was pretty shocking, these people should be held to account - its a hate crime, which carries a judicial punishment, real world consequences would be the best way to tackle it, right now you can go onto social media with an anonymous handle and say what the hell you like with no recourse. Social media has made it far too easy!!

Have not read all posts but I am a white female and I do not have an issue with tackling racism as racism is abhorrent BUT taking the knee looks like bowing down and if we all want to be treated equally, I don't think bending on our knees is the right way to do it. Black people do not kneel in front of me and I do not kneel in front of Black people..we are all equal.

@Smileyaxolotl1

Neondreams.

I’m not being disingenuous at all. Racism has always been about treating people nastily or insulting them do their race.
If someone calls me a ‘white birch’ that is a racist act.

Treating people nastily and insulting them due to their race is only one sign. The origin of racism is where one race holds MAJORITY POWER over another e.g the Jim Crow laws in America and segregation. Racism is institutional, it is about power. You don't seem to understand the origins. It is not merely being nasty to someone based on their skin colour. That is only a symptom. A biproduct of racism. Racism is about power of one race, over another. Institutional, legislative, systemic.

I will go down to the lowest level and rise with them if that's what it takes

Punishing those who perpetrate racist hate speech and crimes is certainly part of what we should be doing

However the more powerful thing is targeting racist attitudes and making them unacceptable to hold. Then we will have real change. That starts with hearts and minds and education and that's where I do feel that the whole team taking the knee and coming out behind their black team mates is powerful. Harry Kane as a white English working class hero saying 'if you are a racist we don't want you' is powerful.
Taking the knee gives them a chance to get the message out to young fans that racism is unacceptable. That is doing something practical and powerful.

@Mulhollandmagoo

I have no problem with it, and it was lovely to see all players at the Euros final on Sunday partake.

The issue in itself with racism is people taking the knee, and high profile people publicly condemning racist behaviour is that it doesn't solve the problem we have, it just pays lip service, almost as if we don't know what to do but we need to do something. The racist behaviour that emerged of the euros final was pretty shocking, these people should be held to account - its a hate crime, which carries a judicial punishment, real world consequences would be the best way to tackle it, right now you can go onto social media with an anonymous handle and say what the hell you like with no recourse. Social media has made it far too easy!!

I totally agree regarding sm ...but the taking the knee is just a small part of the action not the only part.

Prejudice Plus Power = Racism

Racism is never merely about colour.

I’ll start by saying that I’m mixed race, and both my parents and I have experienced racism of different kinds, so kind of have a foot in both camps.

My primary issue with it is the link to the “Black Lives Matter” movement as a political party (and yes I do know it didn’t start with them, but that is what the current wave is largely associated with). As a political organisation and movement, BLM have some pretty worrying attitudes if you look beneath the first page of the website, and too many people simply blindly “take the knee” without realising what they are actually supporting.

Secondly, for a lot of people I don’t think it does anything useful - it’s another example of virtue signalling without actually having to DO anything (not saying that’s the case with the England lads as they seem to really put their money where their mouth is). It’s a bit like ok we’ve “raised awareness”, we’ve done our bit. I also think it plays to the performance politics which is so common these days; some people are so obsessed with “micro aggressions” and “offensive statues”, and put all their energy into talking about and “debating their trauma” rather than actually DOING something. Taking the knee and woke hand wringing didn’t stop three young lads from becoming the targets of bigots did it? We need to face some uncomfortable truths and dig deeper to see why people think it’s ok to think this way - and blindly claiming that “all white people are racist” is not the way.

Taking a knee is one avenue to fight the horrendous tidal wave of racism we see. There are lots of other ways, too. We need to take every single avenue we can.

Any weird comments about virtue signalling and woke ness seem to come from social media & the strange terminology used on there. For those of us not on social media it is much more basic:

racism is disgusting, there is no excuse for it, we fight it together on all fronts, we help each other, we take collective responsibility for it, and that's it.

I'm a PT but also do some coaching in other sports (won't say details as it's outing) but where I live and what I coach means most of my athletes are from racial minorities. It's been an education and very eye opening and it's very upsetting to say but as a white person the brutal reality is yeah, my life matters more to a lot of people when I look at how some of my athletes have been racially abused in front of me, experiences with the police, etc. I don't want people to think my life matters more but genuinely you can't work for years doing what I do and seeing these things and not be upset by it.

On social media it seems to be treated in a weird way but here how I see it, it's an affront to everyone in my view. Noone tried to persuade me to think what I think, it's just casual observations over time and it's shaming of us as society.

news.yale.edu/2020/12/07/kendi-racism-about-power-and-policy-not-people

"Defining Racism

1. If we want to work on solutions to racism, we need a comm

definiti• and a co mon analysis of racism.

1. acism is n*t the same thing as individual race prejudice,

bias and bigot a . All people are racially prejudiced (regardless of racial/ethnic identity). It is part of the air we breathe. It is socialized into every person. But this does not mean that everyone is racist.

1. Racism is more than race prejudice. It is more than

individual attitudes and actions. Racism is the collective actions of a dominant racial group.

1. Power turns race prejudice into racism. Racial prejudice

becomes racism when one group's racial prejudices are enforced by the systems and institutions of a society, giving power and privilege based on racial identity to the group in power, and limiting the power and privilege of the racial groups that are not in power. - racism is, therefore, the misuse of systemic power. " www.winona.edu/WSUFA/Media/IFO%20Anti-Racism%20Workshop.pdf

@sanluca

The problem for me is when you chose not to take the knee yourself (yes, because in European culture and history this is seen as a sign of submission), this then means you are racist yourself, according to posters on here. Racism will never be eradicated if people feel they can force not just their opinions, but also their actions onto other people. It will only divide and polarise. Just look at this thread.

this , and its the reason why i have no truck with any of it , , if your white and you dont do something it means your racist , say you dont agree with it for whatever reason it means your racist , it will be twisted around whichever way to make it so that it means your racist , so my attitude had been fuck the lot of them and their stupid opinions , iv got no time for any of it , and its always assumptions made by randoms on the internt who have no clue what you are like as they have never ever met you ,