Questions for white people: what is the problem with "taking the knee"

[Flayn]

1. What is the problem with taking the knee
2. How would you prefer athletes protest racism

I am a regular poster, under a changed name and speak 2nd language English - I know the passive aggressiveness some posters adopt for this topic.

Taking the knee is a response to racial abuse and not the cause of it

Well, it certainly appears to be coming full circle now.

And no, incidents may have happened in the past, but certainly not on this scale.

If those penalties had gone in, there would have been no racist comments or actions, those poor boys would have been Gods, the vile, appalling uneducated thugs who targeted them afterwards should face criminal charges.

I’m not trying to crash this topic but can you imagine if one of the players who missed a penalty had been openly gay the abuse he would have been subjected to. How many openly gay footballers can you name? In football the problem is not just race, it’s inequality of all types.

I would prefer a 30 second announcement at the beginning of the match stating that football recognises and respects all players, no matter what their race, religion, sexuality etc, which could then be applauded by the players and the crowd alike creating a sense of unity. Who knows, it might make the crowd turn on anyone shouting any kind of abuse.

Racism had got much, much worse in this country before the BLM protests I'm afraid to say.

I forgot I never said my view though I'm not white per se. Personally, as a mixed race woman, I have no problems with taking a knee, I think it should be encouraged however I don't think anyone should be bullied over it one way or another. I think people should do it, because it's just the right thing to do. People claim it is 'virtue signalling' (whatever the F that means - in my parents' day it simply meant having manners, but these days, manners are apparently a left wing conspiracy) but it takes signalling to achieve any change. Whether it be the suffragettes and their protests, their sit-ins in public bars when women weren't allowed in them, or any other type of actions a person takes. I'd rather 'virtue' signal than lack of virtue signal. I'd rather 'do good', than do bad. To me, virtue signalling is just called basic manners.

Racism had got much, much worse in this country before the BLM protests I'm afraid to say

Can you give examples of how it got so widespread that the BLM protests 'needed' to take place here?

Neondreams
Priti Patel is arguably the most powerful women in the country.
Is it racism if people racially abuse her?

Whether it be the suffragettes and their protests, their sit-ins in public bars when women weren't allowed in them, or any other type of actions a person takes. I'd rather 'virtue' signal than lack of virtue signal.

That's not virtue signalling, it's activism. Virtue signalling typically has no cost or risk to you at all, it's just what you put in your social media posts for people to see what a great person/organisation you are, and it's frequently cynical, hypocritical or attention seeking. That's why it's considered negative.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.com/sport/football/46504433.amp

John Barnes back heeling a banana off the pitch in 1988

Racism in sport was just the same then the only difference was that more people actually agreed with it and no-one took a stand against it. It was barely condemned at all. Black players were expected to keep their heads down and say nothing about it.

Now we have social media and 24-7 coverage so things are publicised more and (a good thing IMHO) players black and white are showing some leadership and solidarity and pushing back. This is how society changes. This is how segregation and apartheid were stopped when people campaigned actively against them on many fronts in sport and music as well as politics.

You can't pretend that sport or business or whatever can be 'free of politics' they are a part of society and reflect social norms. They have always been used as a force for good eg sporting boycotts of Apartheid South Africa

Taking the knee is the current continuation of a good tradition of using your sporting platform to speak up in my opinion and, as a white person, I support it.

@Smileyaxolotl1

Neondreams Priti Patel is arguably the most powerful women in the country. Is it racism if people racially abuse her?

You are being disingenuous. Racism traditionally has been about one race having power over the other. This, is the most basic and well-known basis of the definition that has been used for hundreds of years. I suggest you research what racism it and where it stems from as you appear to not understand it's origins.

Racism will never go away, it is a part of the human race

Interesting hill to die on. "racism will always be around so tough luck". Yeah, because of people like you.

I have supported taking the knee, but it is a strange gesture to choose as a UK protest, as others have said, bending the knee and kneeling have always been subservient here and I don't think I'd be comfortable actually doing it, although I support the rights of others to do so.

I don't think that's what's causing the booing though, I think that has a number of roots:

• People don't want to/can't accept that there is still a widespread problem with racism. Afterall we've had laws for ages...
• White lower working class boys are also severely disadvantaged. Although they aren't in football stadiums, white football fans identify with them more than with black footballers. This is where some of the "all lives matter" originates. People struggle to see that black disadvantage is different to any other disadvantage.
• It's seen as a political gesture, which is not allowed in football. Weve previously seen players banned and fined for slogans on Tshirts and even Poppies were banned at international tournaments. It feels, to some, like white protest is banned but black protest is allowed.

As a 58 year old white male, I applaud sportspeople taking the knee. Racism is utterly contemptuous, and anything that challenges it and shows solidarity with those who suffer it is a jolly good thing. The fact that it upsets the vile racists is a bonus.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Whether it be the suffragettes and their protests, their sit-ins in public bars when women weren't allowed in them, or any other type of actions a person takes. I'd rather 'virtue' signal than lack of virtue signal.

That's not virtue signalling, it's activism. Virtue signalling typically has no cost or risk to you at all, it's just what you put in your social media posts for people to see what a great person/organisation you are, and it's frequently cynical, hypocritical or attention seeking. That's why it's considered negative.

Virtue signalling is a part of activism. And considering from Colin Kaepernick down, there can be a downside to taking a knee, in fact, you're basically making a target of yourself, it is a brave but risky form of activism. The risk to those like Kaepernick and other footballers who take the knee, the risk for abuse, being let go, etc is immense. It is activism. In it's purest sense.

Virtue signalling is a part of activism. And considering from Colin Kaepernick down, there can be a downside to taking a knee, in fact, you're basically making a target of yourself, it is a brave but risky form of activism. The risk to those like Kaepernick and other footballers who take the knee, the risk for abuse, being let go, etc is immense. It is activism. In it's purest sense.

You asked why people refer to certain things as virtue signalling. I'm not referring to any specific example, just explaining why people use it as a pejorative phrase. And yes it is sometimes used to mean things which are better described as "activism", it's an overused term, but still a useful one, sometimes.

And as for Megan M being listed as white, maybe she did do it herself. She was a young new actor, she's very smart and has eyes in her head to see the world around her. Maybe she realised it would be easier to get work if she was white? Who knows?

@Ereshkigalangcleg Fair enough I see your point there.

The problem for me is when you chose not to take the knee yourself (yes, because in European culture and history this is seen as a sign of submission), this then means you are racist yourself, according to posters on here.
Racism will never be eradicated if people feel they can force not just their opinions, but also their actions onto other people. It will only divide and polarise. Just look at this thread.

'Standing Tall' as some people seem to suggest wouldn't work in sports matches, all players are already standing tall ready to start.

At the final, both teams and officials took the knee, it was a powerful image imo

There might have been a risk to the early examples of people taking the knee.

Now you'd be more likely to get abuse or let go if you didn't do it - as examples in this thread have shown when people say they'd question it if someone chose not to.

And being woke and virtue signalling is not a good thing. It's jumping on every bandwagon and cause you can find and joining in so as to look like a good person when actually you're doing it either because you think you should, or because you worry you'll be judged if you don't. Rather like clapping for the NHS and only doing it so your neighbours don't think badly of you.

Rather cheapens it for those people who are actually doing practical, real actions for the cause.