Questions for white people: what is the problem with "taking the knee"

[Flayn]

1. What is the problem with taking the knee
2. How would you prefer athletes protest racism

I am a regular poster, under a changed name and speak 2nd language English - I know the passive aggressiveness some posters adopt for this topic.

It's really not lost in translation. Nearly everyone gets it.

@Orangecinnamon21

I don't get why people think it is OK to apply their interpretation of what 'taking the knee' is and believing that to be true even though time and time again this has been explained. It seems willfully obtuse somehow.

Because it's really unclear what it does mean! And that's part of its problem as a gesture.

No difficulty deciding that Schadenfreude. It would be the child most at risk of drowning. Skin colour would have fuck all to do with it. The one clinging to the bank could be more easily reached.

I would like to know why white people think it is ok to shout at my teenage child ‘it’s because of people like you that we lost’

Not 'white' people, but vile racist people. Most people (white or otherwise) would be disgusted by such behaviour.

I support taking the knee.

In terms of racism in football, I would like to see the police and the FA really take action- neither of them actually do much about it.

I also think clubs need to be prepared to agree to stop matches as soon as it happens and the FA should support them with this. Stadium emptied, game re-starts and is played in an empty stadium. Far too many fans, who claim not to be racist, allow it to happen next to them and do not speak up.

Not sue how you stop the racist social media. I have reported 4 twitter accounts today for racism against the England players. One is an account where the N word has been used continually going back over a year, where videos and photos of black people are used persistently to humiliate or make derogatory points. Three of the accounts have been closed- I don't know if permanently or not. The last one with the pictures and videos has not, although some individual tweets have been, many offensive ones have been left. Twitter/Facebook and Instagram need to take fast action- connect ID security to accounts for verification, close accounts permanently and pass the info to the police or clubs/FA.9

I'm opposed to it because, as others have said, within my cultural frame of reference it's an extremely subservient or submissive gesture. I wouldn't do it and it makes me uncomfortable to see it. I'm also opposed to the organisation Black Lives Matter. (Not the idea! They matter. But the organisation has lots of other political views that I find unpalatable.)

I'd be happy with a different gesture carying the same message - linking or holding hands, hand placed over the heart. Something connoting unity or solidarity, not surrender. That and concrete steps like banning people who shout racist abuse at players from attending matches. The players shouldn't have to put up with that.

I'm opposed to it because, as others have said, within my cultural frame of reference it's an extremely subservient or submissive gesture. I wouldn't do it and it makes me uncomfortable to see it. I'm also opposed to the organisation Black Lives Matter. (Not the idea! They matter. But the organisation has lots of other political views that I find unpalatable.)

^100%

@GenderApostatemk2

I wouldn’t ‘take the knee’ for any reason, under any circumstances, the thought of it stirs a visceral anger in me. It’s a gesture of submission that doesn’t sit well with me at all. No one could ever convince me that it’s a good thing to do. It’s a platitude for the woke.

Me too

I have a problem with kneeling because I see it as support of blm which I think is a very bad organisation. Firstly it started re police killings of black people in America, if people checked the stats you'll see that police in America actually kill far more whites (pls see Tony timpa, Daniel shaver, Joshua hutcheson for examples on youtube) but media ignore them completely. I also condemn the violent and barbaric actions of the blm 'protests' I watched last year, I could never support such an organisation and as someone who followed closely online, I was horrified to hear the media call them peaceful protests and anti racist They were anything but. . I condemn any racism and I believe blm encourages hate and devision. Blm leader is on tape confirming they are trained Marxists. Leader had also made alot of money and has bought herself a multi million dollar property portfolio.
Also as a working class person I find it a bit insulting to be lectured about equality by multimillionaire footballers too. No offence to them and im pleased for their success and wealth, I just won't be lectured about equality by millionaires.
I dont think kneeling stops racism, just causes more devide. Racism goes in all directions but I dont think you can ever stop it and especially on social media. I personally think powers that be are trying to devide us by colour and I refuse to buy into it. I take everyone as I find them and being anti blm is not being anti black.

It's only a problem for people who feel insecure about themselves, their own identities, and their place in the world.

I support taking the knee.
I feel slightly uncomfortable as I do see it as a subservient/religious act and that Jarrs for me personally - similar to scorers looking to heaven and players doing elaborate genuflecting etc.
I don’t understand the action fully - is it actually a representation of the officer who killed George Floyd?
I find the raised fist far more powerful.

No issue!! Racism has no place in todays society!

I also think it is abhorrent to shout at any teenage child that he or she is the reason we lost. I can think simultaneously that I would dismiss such comments as being made by idiots. It was not that young man's fault that he didn't score the winning shot. I presume he/she did their best, under extreme pressure. Too bad it didn't come off yesterday. It might be the key to Saka taking the shot that wins the next World Cup.

I thought the Italians should have been red carded on a couple of plays (they would have been in rugby) and then the outcome would not have been based on slickly executed professional fouls.

I'm middle aged and white.

1. I have no issue with footballers or anyone taking the knee, and respect anyone standing up (or kneeling) for what they believe in.
2. If people think taking the knee is not for them, that's fine too, I also respect that, its the privilege of choice.

@Secondbellini

‘I'm really not sure what's so wrong with being woke, given that. Are people so against being aware of social and political issues? Anyone who's vehimently opposed to all things "woke" needs to take a look at themselves.’

I see it as describing people who are disproportionately white, university educated and well off. It refers to people who believe in postmodernism and care about identity but not material issues such as poverty, class, homelessness and geographical inequalities.

I think that description is broadly promoted by a group of people such as Pluckrose and Lindsay who would consider themselves left but not woke.

If the group of people who are that combination of postmodern/identarian/relegate material issues want a name other than woke, they could claim one.

I believe they don’t claim one because they just want to be seen as right/good/correct and their detractors are just evil/stupid/wrong rather than concede they are just another ideology.

So in other words, at least as far as the United States is concerned, those who have adopted the white saviour mantle, and insist on perpetuating it.

@GetTaeFuck

No issue.

But like a PP said, with our long, long (too fucking long) monarchy history, it’s seen as a subservient pose.

Yes it has awkward connotations for republican minded people , Scots and Irish. A sign of subservience to a monarch. But I have no objection in principle.

Because racism exists between all races not just Black.
To single it out and displays of support are fine, but it's how you tackle in rl that matters.
Always challenge and always report.

Another white person here who totally agrees with taking the knee.

I'm Scottish but was really rooting for the English football team to win the Euros (I'm football illiterate, don't know the first thing about the game) because they seem such decent, caring folk - so unlike our f*ing government/"leaders". And they're still that way despite all the prejudice and hate thrown their way.

I guess the question is do people object to the action or do you reject fighting racism?

In support of the players many of them have worked with organisations like 'kick it out' have influenced policies , spoken out against injustice. Yes they get paid a lot...they are in positions of influence. They don't just 'take the knee', and yes some of them come from working class backgrounds too. There is zero chance of fighting class inequality, if we can't at the same time fight other injustices. It is not a competition. To be quote honest the vast majority of us are being shafted by those in power ...they are just playing the divide and rule game...sees like it's working.

I don't have an issue with it but I think after the first few matches it will do very little. It's good to keep the idea in people's minds but realistically what is it going to change. I'd rather they did something that would really make a difference. Eg a fan shouting racist abuse during a match, I would absolutely support them all walking off the pitch until that person was removed. I think that would be a more useful gesture and produce better results.

I’m fascinated by this thread, as I had no idea that the belief that this was an innocent gesture of anti-racism was so widespread. I’m astonished!
I think the example of Millwall is salient. The players knelt before matches. The fans booed because they hate the Marxist organisation BLM. In subsequent games, the players changed to linking arms against racism. The fans cheered. Millwall link arms against racism before matches now. No problem.

Many people who despise racism despise the BLM movement. Their actions appear to increase division. I believe ‘taking the knee’ increases division, and that seeing your national team kneeling in fealty to a foreign political movement is unlikely to move minds. Sanctimonious virtue-signalling isn’t terribly persuasive.

Are you really saying Millwall fans are deep thinking anti Marxists? Goodness.

I hate it and it makes me angry. It's a gesture of subservience. I think it's woke crap. Politics and sports don't mix.

Just to chime in with others…
I’m white. Have absolutely no problem with it. In fact, I think it’s a good thing.

I cannot believe that some people have an issue with it - that it makes them uncomfortable. Rather they feel uncomfortable with a gesture than being subject to racist abuse!!

@SchadenfreudePersonified

I already said redcar - I would be happy to bow my head in silence as a mark of respect and solidarity.

Bowing the head IS subservient. Putting one knee on the ground, with an upright back and staring straight ahead, is far more powerful, far stronger, far more direct, and far more challenging.