Questions for white people: what is the problem with "taking the knee"

[Flayn]

1. What is the problem with taking the knee
2. How would you prefer athletes protest racism

I am a regular poster, under a changed name and speak 2nd language English - I know the passive aggressiveness some posters adopt for this topic.

@ufucoffee

I did support it but don't now because it's gone on so long it's pointless

In your job are your co-workers routinely expected to do their jobs while routinely being relentlessly publicly subjected to racist abuse? Are your colleagues racially attacked by thousands simply for being themselves and doing their jobs?

If that happened in my working environment I would listen carefully to my black team mates and I would do anything I could to show that my loyalty was with my team mates against any racist so-called fan, and that in representing my country I wished to do so for a country with us free and equitable for all.

If the people doing it felt it was ‘pointless’ they presumably wouldn’t do it. While they have a will you do it, to show their values in an arena that is frequently racist, who are we to condemn it?

I would like to know why white people think it is ok to shout at my teenage child ‘it’s because of people like you that we lost’
So it’s ok to celebrate the ‘coloured’ people when they are doing well but when things go wrong suddenly they are called all manner of names. This is racism at its finest.

Well ufocofee this discussion shows it's not pointless doesn't it? I think many people in the UK did not know how and why taking a knee came about. I ddi because i read some American forums and news sites so had heard of Colin Kaepernick from when he started. I have commented on other threads on the strangeness to me of fans saying they feel hurt by their team not winning and my suspicion they may be of the first to turn aggressive when their team lost. That may be a wrong assumption but what should be overwhelmingly obvious to all today is the horrible hurt to the English team players who are black and are being so vilely abused.

Imagine to have grown up in your country , to have seen your parents working hard, to have your talent recognised and then work hard to practice and improve, to achieve professional status and be a valued team member, to be able to help your family and others because of that, to feel thrilled and excited to contribute to your nation's teams effort as much as you are able, to be apparantly cheered on with you teammates by thousands live and millions on TV. Then to be so vilely abused and rejected . By what a few idiots on Twitter or whatever or maybe in their hearts by all other white citizens? That must be the most hurtful thing , how can they ever know if they can trust the white population not to smile in their face and stab them in their back?

That was why CK and others took the knee, and BLM operates because they are being told their country is not their country, they can never feel safe and valued in their own country not matter what they do whether they are President of the USA or homeless on the street.

I don't have a problem with it at all.

The cure for racism starts in the home.

It won't though, as it's too effective a method for leaders to manipulate and control people.

I think a more nuanced argument is in order frankly. I currently live in a rural majority white part of the UK. POC are a minority. But once, when I was younger, I lived in an American city where I was the minority element. I think the BLM movement just over-politicizes what ought to be human respect, dignity and common courtesy between people. One life, black or white or brown or yellow, should count as one life.

@DancesWithTortoises

Someone I know who isn't keen thinks it's "too American" and not something that comes naturally to Brits. He'd prefer standing with bowed head.

I have no strong feelings either way and think it should be up to the individual.

I feel the same.

Not natural to me - I am only comfortable kneeling before God, but would happily bow my head and stand in silence.

However if others choose to kneel, I wouldn't disparage them for doing so.

In practical terms - as an Ole Trout I find kneeling down easy. Getting up again, however . . .

@MondieBee

Because it's part of an ideological approach to racism based in critical race theory, which results in people writing questions on forums addressed to all white people as though they are a homogeneous group with very similar shared opinions. To me this approach of grouping people by their skin colour and attributing characteristics to them based on it is racist.

The general sentiment of most people who agree with it, which is that they want to oppose racism, is obviously fine. It's the root ideology of the symbol that bothers me. I also think it's a very cheap and easy way to show you are 'good' - either by doing it or endorsing it, with very little substance or meaning. It's a typical social media #bekind approach of loudly endorsing something without actually having to do anything.

I also can't help having a negative reaction to any movement that extinguishes discussion by calling other people names. It's possible for someone to be very much against racism and also not certain about the helpfulness or relevance of 'taking the knee'. Anyone who insists otherwise is ideologically captured.

I agree that the question appears racist because it only targets people of one particular colour, but I don't think the op meant it as such.

It would be interesting to rephrase the question to ask why people of any colour might have issues with kneeling.

Ultimately, the question is divisive and unhelpful in addressing racism. As are the accusations from some posters here on this thread that anyone daring to disagree with kneeling are automatically "racist" and beyond the pale .

To those saying there are 'better ways' or you feel taking the knee appears 'subservient' , please explain to me what are the better ways you perceive that should be taken, the better actions , the the better solutions. Because it seems to me that at the same time as you are saying those things you aren't offering solutions. What do you want to do to fight racism? Do you even want to? Or do you think.it is not an issue?

Notwithstanding the fact that taking the knee is just one small part of the holistic actions concerned people take anyhow.

One life, black or white or brown or yellow, should count as one life.

I agree - all lives matter.

But some lives are under more immediate threat than others, and need extra consideration.

If there were two children, one in danger on the side of a pond, and the other struggling in it - which would you throw a rope to?

For me it is for religious reasons that kneeling or bowing for anyone or for anything other then Allah is something that that l would never do. It's something that cannot be compromised

I agree

It appearing subservient doesn’t mean it is a bad thing; it can be a really good thing. I am just unclear who British footballers are being subservient to.

I understand from the helpful posts on here that in the context of American football it is a way of being opposed to racism while showing respect to the military who in the US are thanked for their service to the country.

But we don’t thank the military in the U.K., so I am unclear who the British football are serving when they do this.

It has just got a bit lost in translation maybe?

@princessTiasmum

i'm sorry,i don' agree with it,it feels as if people are being forced to do it,i'm not racist at all, [i have a black grandson] but i think there are better ways ,

@princessTiasmum nobody's asking you to do it personally, but why would you not agree with calling racism out, as you're not '' forced '' to do it. Also not really seeing what the fact you have a black grandson has to do with anything, does that automatically mean somebody can't be racist if they have a black member of family?

One life, black or white or brown or yellow, should count as one life

should , yes.

But the whole point is that we are not there yet.

@1990b

For me it is for religious reasons that kneeling or bowing for anyone or for anything other then Allah is something that that l would never do. It's something that cannot be compromised

I agree

I've said much the same 1990b.

Only God.

I don't get this 'religious reasons' stuff. People taking the knee aren't pretending to be worshipping a god, and surely religious faith is practical and life-encompassing - not something that relies on physical action.
When it comes to making a symbolic, public anti-racism statement - as the England team have done- is there another gesture (e.g. punching the air, clapping) that you would be OK with?

I already said redcar - I would be happy to bow my head in silence as a mark of respect and solidarity.

I don't get why people think it is OK to apply their interpretation of what 'taking the knee' is and believing that to be true even though time and time again this has been explained. It seems willfully obtuse somehow.

Your post comes across as aggressive.
So much so I cannot bring myself to comment on your question.
Learn some manners for how to begin a very important question.

A lot of religious faiths do rely on physical actions!

I am not saying footballers are doing it for religious reasons. I am asking why they are choosing this particular act? Of course they shouldn’t choose some random empty act.

Probably if you asked them they could explain exactly what they were doing and why it was significant.

I have no issues with it whatsoever. I understand why people choose to do it(athletes or otherwise) and respect that stance.

Would I personally do it? No , for various reasons. I don't do any "public" gestures regardless what they're for. I call out and decry things when i see them/hear about them,I speak out , I donate to charities, offer support etc. That's just me and my personal preference and choice.

I have absolutely no problem with it and I was pleased the football team did it.

What I’m not in favour of though is people casting judgement on someone’s beliefs/values based on outward participation based symbols (this goes for anything - poppy wearing/participating in vigils/knee taking/posting things on SM etc etc )

Many people I know who don't agree with this (from poorer backgrounds might I add) see it as they are being put below other people who aren't white rather than being put as equal to them.

Others feel their own (class) disadvantage and prejudice they live with in life is conveniently being ignored and seeing people who are more privileged than them being treated as they are the ones who are most vulnerable hurts them. It makes them feel even more ignored.

Some are just plain racist but try to make out they are just having a laugh saying that people are too sensitive nowadays.

@DutifulDaughterWifeMother

I would like to know why white people think it is ok to shout at my teenage child ‘it’s because of people like you that we lost’ So it’s ok to celebrate the ‘coloured’ people when they are doing well but when things go wrong suddenly they are called all manner of names. This is racism at its finest.

That's shocking - the poor kid.

@SchadenfreudePersonified yes, you did say that! I don't think one gesture is particularly different to another (I don't get the idea of 'kneeling before God' but only because I assume that active religious faith relies on everyday conduct rather than a specific physical movement) but I agreed with your rope/pond analogy.