Questions for white people: what is the problem with "taking the knee"

[Flayn]

1. What is the problem with taking the knee
2. How would you prefer athletes protest racism

I am a regular poster, under a changed name and speak 2nd language English - I know the passive aggressiveness some posters adopt for this topic.

@Smileyaxolotl1

For me it’s because it is intrinsically entwined with BLM. An organisation that is by its own admission on its UK website and go fund me is designed to destroy capitalism, eliminate the nuclear family and defund the police.

I also have some sympathy with the it’s too American argument, the whole BLM thing last year came about due to the murder of a black American criminal by a nasty, corrupt white policeman. While I have no doubt that racism still exists in the Uk the culture is very different.

To answer your last question any other gesture would be great and it being in support of Sterling’s anti racism campaign or Kick it Out would be excellent too.

This

Good response from Tyrone Mings to Priti Patel on Twitter - “You don’t get to stoke the fire at the beginning of the tournament by labelling our anti-racism message as ‘Gesture Politics’ & then pretend to be disgusted when the very thing we’re campaigning against, happens.”

@XingMing What BAME percentage would you feel was the acceptable bar for people to stop feeling 'awkward' about celebrating diversity?

The BAME element ....wtaf?

@Flayn

1. What is the problem with taking the knee

1. How would you prefer athletes protest racism

I am a regular poster, under a changed name and speak 2nd language English - I know the passive aggressiveness some posters adopt for this topic.

I have no problem, it seems to me to be a dignified way to protest.

I support anti-racism campaigns and I'm sickened and disgusted by the comments made to the footballers on social media yesterday. Those people should be charged and prosecuted.

However, I'm not a big fan of taking the knee as I feel it's become closely associated with the BLM movement, some parts of which seem to have anti-police connotations. I can understand this given the specific events in the US but I don't think it applies to our police system in the same way. It became quite a divisive gesture in international rugby and players who chose to support the anti-racism message in other ways shouldn't be the subject of abuse either. I also find kneeling subservient and I'd rather it was a more powerful gesture.

(I'm white but have an ethnically diverse family.)

No problem here, I’d do it and support it.

I was literally wondering this today! I'm white and just in awe most of the time at the patient and mostly peaceful way that people of colour protest when the most abhorrent things are happening to them. I fully support teams taking the knee to show their solidarity and am BAFFLED as to why anyone would have anything against it?!
Reading this I can't find any reasons against it that are significant enough to not do it, if you see what I mean!
I really think that racism of any sort should be met with harsher punishment along with proper education of black history to try and change the roots of where people become racist.

@XingMing

I don't have a problem with refusing racism. But, outside of the UK's major cities, the population is largely white... and across the UK's whole recorded population, the BAME element accounts for roughly 13% according to recent census data, so in a lot of the country it does feel awkward to be celebrating diversity. Especially when rural areas get only about 65-70% per capita spend on education and services of the spend in inner cities. There is real abject poverty within two miles of where I live. I cannot simply reduce the argument to skin colour.

I cannot simply reduce the argument to skin colour.

Which argument? Rural poverty and racism are two entirely different arguments. You can be against both.

This white American has no problem with it and admires athletes who do so. It kind of brings a tear to my eye. Not kidding.

I also back the whole Black Lives Matters movement and think American Republicans have all gone completely insane.

@zyd32 a white police man was literally just convicted of the manslaughter of a black footballer in this country...

I don't think there's a problem with taking the knee. And don't even get me started on the "war on woke". This is from Wikipedia, but I've heard it from other sources so I think it's accurate. "

The phrase "stay woke" had emerged in the United States by the early 21st century. Developing within African-American Vernacular English, "woke" referred to an awareness of the social and political issues affecting African Americans, especially with regards to racial prejudice and discrimination."

I'm really not sure what's so wrong with being woke, given that. Are people so against being aware of social and political issues? Anyone who's vehimently opposed to all things "woke" needs to take a look at themselves.

I wouldn't do it but I have no problem with anyone who does. It's personal choice

@Bollindger

Ok. So please tell me apart from the violence it stored up with status vandalised, what has taking the knee done? I mean there was still booing at the Euro final, people were still rude. If instead of taking a knee £1 had been paid into a fund, to help people we would have something useful to show from a protest. Silences and kneeling cost nothing and are forgotten the second people have finishef doing it. Putting your money where your mouth is can provide results.

I think once you start saying ‘protest can only happen by people who can pay’ you get yourself on some very shaky ground. That is literally the history of the working class emancipation of the last 300 years. They can and do support anti racism initiatives- and they have a free, meaningful, powerful and collective visual protest that most people understand.

@Turdibacious

I think because historically, in Europe anyway, it's a gesture of subservience, like taking an oath of fealty to an overlord. So to me it seems an odd gesture to choose.

I would prefer to see people taking a stand against racism

I agree. To me kneeling is a sign of submission, one kneels to put themselves lower than others, quite literally bowing to a master. Which in the context of slavery is pretty ironic.

I have no problem with people taking the knee. People can come to their own decisions and do what they want. I don't think it's effective to fight racism with a gesture and think it is now something that is expected or has to be done so has lost its impact. Personally I won't get on my knees for anyone - women on their knees are often expected to do something else while they're down there.

@riceuten

And BLM a "vile Marxist movement" ? Someone needs to stop reading the Daily Heil

Or perhaps stop reading the BLM website where they proudly explain their Marxist stance, or they did when I had a read of it in the summer, when they 'peacefully protested', burning down businesses, committing violent acts and destroying communities, driving the police out (Portland) and taking over.

The 6th Jan was one awful incident on one day.

I don't like 'taking the knee'. For a start the phrase 'taking the knee' irritates. But my main issue is what does it do? What happened differently because of this action? It doesn't show anything about the individual footballers as they are not in a position to make a choice. So if it is about teams/organisations then surely there is some actual action they could be taking? But also I think it is oversimplistic importation of an american response to an american situation which paints a very black and white picture.

Agree totally with the taking of the knee

As PP said racism isn't a USA only issue, and even if the BLM organisation had some dodgy views (I don't know either way) Southgate and the rest of the team made it clear that they were kneeling against racism rather than in support of any particular organisation

You only need to read the news over the last few months of black Olympic athletes and MPs having frightening experiences with the police to realise it is a real issue here, and is probably only the tip of the iceberg

i'm sorry,i don' agree with it,it feels as if people are being forced to do it,i'm not racist at all, [i have a black grandson] but i think there are better ways ,

I agree. To me kneeling is a sign of submission, one kneels to put themselves lower than others, quite literally bowing to a master. Which in the context of slavery is pretty ironic.

^This

‘I'm really not sure what's so wrong with being woke, given that. Are people so against being aware of social and political issues? Anyone who's vehimently opposed to all things "woke" needs to take a look at themselves.’

I see it as describing people who are disproportionately white, university educated and well off. It refers to people who believe in postmodernism and care about identity but not material issues such as poverty, class, homelessness and geographical inequalities.

I think that description is broadly promoted by a group of people such as Pluckrose and Lindsay who would consider themselves left but not woke.

If the group of people who are that combination of postmodern/identarian/relegate material issues want a name other than woke, they could claim one.

I believe they don’t claim one because they just want to be seen as right/good/correct and their detractors are just evil/stupid/wrong rather than concede they are just another ideology.

On behalf of all white people... , I have no problem with it.

What an interesting thread!

Fyi, I'm mixed race and so not white. I have no particular problem with taking the knee. I think the reason it looks a bit submissive is as to not "scare" ...certain people.

I loved watching BLM protests tear down the Bristol slave trader. Honestly, i felt like i was watching history!! I want to see more of it!

On a related point though; I read a journalist in the Guardian suggest that we should then tear down all statues (Gandhi, Churchill, all). It IS true that when you start, when do you stop?

@Flayn
Whats your view on that?

Are people here genuinely oblivious to historic and present institutional racism in the UK police?