Questions for white people: what is the problem with "taking the knee"

[Flayn]

1. What is the problem with taking the knee
2. How would you prefer athletes protest racism

I am a regular poster, under a changed name and speak 2nd language English - I know the passive aggressiveness some posters adopt for this topic.

Seriously, the fact you immediately linked those things to Black people is insane.

And my point was there has been murder as long as humans have existed. Sadly the same goes for xenophobia and racism.

I’m not white, but have discussed* this with white people (why they don’t like it): the 3 I spoke to said “but all lives should matter”.

*this is putting it generously.

I don’t have a problem with it. But I do sort of wish we could have come up with our own symbol here that felt less like an American import.

@ihatefish - what is it about Karl Marx’s theories that upset you?

@ChubbyLittleManInACampervan

No problem with anyone doing it

But I won’t kneel for anyone, not even the queen

EVEN the queen .

I wouldn't kneel to anyone. Especially not the queen. But I would kneel for this.

But I'm not white. (Not black either. Brown)

Tbh taking the knee is pointless no matter what in this world people will always hate other ppl, ppl will always think their rights trump other ppls rights its built into who you are

I have no issue with it - I support it

I want to reclaim this lazy and dismissive 'virtue signalling' insult as well - being opposed to racism IS virtuous and I have no problem with people signalling they hold that virtue.

@ghostyslovesheets Well said. I agree.

@Nuffaluff

Answer from white person:

1. There is no problem with taking the knee.

Please do not assume that all white people think the same.

Yeah this about sums it up^

No problem with taking the knee. Do have a problem with your 'question for white people' though. You do know white people aren't all the same don't you?

Not white.

If footballers want to 'take the knee', let them. They're well-meaning. I'm not keen on the gesture myself though as to me, racism creates a 'them and us' division, and kneeling down creates a 'young and old' division. I don't really like division.

Not an issue amongst a group of elite athletes who can easily get up again, but if you roll out that gesture into the wider population, there are a lot of people (me included) who would struggle to get up again! I'd prefer something like bowing your head, as that's a bit more inclusive of those of us with dodgy joints.

(The idea of linking arms as suggested above is nice, but not very Covid-safe.)

I get that the origins of the gesture come from NFL and the reason was to show respect without standing, but in the context of BLM, the gesture makes me a bit uncomfortable. It makes me think of Derek Chauvin kneeling on George Floyd's neck, and I just don't know why you'd want to make a gesture evocative of that. Personally, I'd find a better protest to be doing something as far removed from that as possible - Chauvin was kneeling, so standing. Standing with your head bowed, maybe.

In short, I'm very anti-racism, but the gesture puzzles me a bit. I guess I'd just rather see evidence of people not being racist in their everyday lives - such as actually calling out others for making racist comments - than see people kneeling at events.

@BoxHedge

I don’t have a problem with a stand against racism in sport.

However I distract my children away from that part of the coverage as I don’t want to explain racism to them - they have friends of all colours and I don’t want them to start viewing some friends as ‘other’ or as victims.

Privileged stand right there.

@ghostyslovesheets

Hear hear.

People who talk about virtue signaling are uncomfortable with their own lack of virtue.

You never hear anyone accuse a priest of virtue signalling do you?

I'm a bit hesitant with making bodily signs that signify ideology. When I see people taking the knee, and thinking that some people might pressurised to follow along lest they inspire scorn from their peers, I think of how people were pressurised into doing salutes for totalitarian regimes, even those who didn't believe in the cause. You might balk at that comparison, but making such any kind of unifying action can be cheering or chilling, depending on the context. There is something unnerving about people all doing the same thing, something almost unthinking about it.

I will not make any sign if I feel coerced into it. Doing because something ideological because you might be browbeaten otherwise is not good. I try to think of my actions down the line - is this political movement/group likely to remain stable? Can I really be sure of the intentions of the people at the top? In ten years' time, is the power going to go to their heads? Can I really stand behind them?

I saw a protest about something I really care about recently and they made a gesture that everybody followed along to. If I had been in that crowd, I'm not sure if I would have done it with them, even though the cause is one that is close to my heart, so I'm like that with other things, not just BLM.

Again i am anti racist and dont have a problem with people taking the knee as a symbol of solidarity and anti racism.

But it is confused. For instance I dont stand for the national anthem and havent for a while - but if I knelt it would look like i worshipped the queen which is presumably why they do it after the national anthem to avoid that link but then you lose the initial sentiment that the guy wasnt going to stand for the anthem but then felt he needed to show respect for servicemen.

I guess gestures change their meaning over time

@GenderApostatemk2

I wouldn’t ‘take the knee’ for any reason, under any circumstances, the thought of it stirs a visceral anger in me. It’s a gesture of submission that doesn’t sit well with me at all. No one could ever convince me that it’s a good thing to do. It’s a platitude for the woke.

This

There is no problem. It’s a fine way of using their voice. Keep doing it I say!

“But when people say they don’t like politics mixed with sport/music/entertainment what they usually actually mean is that they have a very comfortable worldview and don’t like having their boat rocked.”

Is that really the case? I have a job involving dealing with the problems of the world and sometimes I just want to switch off for a bit of mindless escapism.

We always seem to ascribe the worst possible motivations to people.

I don’t really have a good understanding of what taking the knee really means. I assume the booing is because football fans like to boo and because they don’t like being lectured to. And because identity politics has become so melded into the corporate world rather than grass roots stuff.

At this point footballers could do something to symbolise their opposition to child trafficking and people would boo, because they are just sick of causes.

No one has told me to do it but plenty have told me I should be falling over myself to support it as a symbol. Symbols have always been, throughout history extremely powerful things with lots of overt and covert meaning-I will decide what symbols I support by reason of what I truly perceive that symbol to mean. To me it means all the things I put in my post. I therefore do not support it

Also, I'm curious to know if you think only white people have an issue with taking the knee?

I don't mind at all.

It's american and a thing associated with the very dodgy American BLM...

You can easily stand up to racism without some bs american inflammatory gesture.

Not 'fully white' so not sure how well my answer will be taken...

I do think Marcus Rashford has been an amazing role model, and that is making people outside of football feel more warmly to both the sport and taking the knee.

I associate it now with people who really care about communities and real issues if racism because of his actions.

I don't have any problem with it at all - I think those who do have either never witnessed racism in a football context, or are willfully missing the point because they don't want to be told how to think. Or both.

Kneeling is a sign of deference and generally to beg and be subservient. I find it to be false, a gesture of submission and isn't empowering to anyone.

However, I have more of a problem with the virtual signalling of this post assuming all white people have a problem with it but no black people do.

@RestingPandaFace

I am white and I have no problem with it, I understand why people want to and would defend their right to do it.

I do think though that in English culture it’s a subservient gesture and actually a bit of an odd gesture to have chosen in context.

I disagree with that - it's historically a symbol of a Knight choosing to demonstrate respect, but is also loaded with the ability to launch into action at a moment's notice, compared to being on both knees as if in prayer or as a supplicant. It also features in Martial Arts as a Battle Ready position.

Those historical connotations are, in my opinion, exactly why racists find it so threatening to them. It's a clear message that 'I could rise and fight, I'm ready right now' and one that links to notions of chivalry/warriors.

Which, to me, isn't odd at all. It's a position of strength, not weakness - and is exactly why racists froth at the mouth over it.