Two Child Limit

[MobilityCat]

Will you be affected? Campaigners have lost their legal challenge to the government's two-child limit on welfare payments.
They had argued the policy breached parents' and children's human rights. The Supreme Court dismissed their case.
The rule, which came into force in April 2017, restricts child tax credit and universal credit to the first two children in a family, with a few exceptions.
It was one of George Osborne's most debated austerity measures.
The policy has affected families of about one million children. Campaigners described the decision as "hugely disappointing".
Full story here www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-57776103

@Boomclaps well apparently they should have just got it insurance and then it would be fine 🤔

@Covidatemyhomework do you think older people should pay for their own care?

@OnlyFoolsnMothers it literally is!

Starting to feel decidedly ‘Daily Mail’ in here.

I thought family size reduced inline with increases in education, wealth and access to healthcare?
Poorer, less educated populations tend to have larger families. So, from that stand point, wouldn’t it be better for people concerned about overpopulation to support better benefits, better access to healthcare and education?

…but na….let’s take a few quid of the families of vulnerable children instead.

@AlexaShutUp

It's a tough one. I do think it's irresponsible to have children that you can't afford to support. I also think there are strong environmental arguments for encouraging people to have fewer children.

However, it isn't quite as simple as that, is it? Some people will accidentally get pregnant and not wish to terminate the pregnancy. Some people will experience a change in circumstances through illness, disability or redundancy etc that mean they are no longer able to afford the family that they had planned. Sadly, some women will get pregnant as the result of rape. Not everyone's lives are perfectly planned. And none of it is the fault of the innocent children who did not ask to be born and who do not deserve to grow up in poverty... even if their parents are feckless and irresponsible.

It is inhumane to deny support to children who really need it, whatever has caused that need.

This

@Boomclaps, the first mistake they made was having five kids. Life would have been so much easier with two. Many years ago when contraception wasn't as easily available, it was a problem., but not now.

They made a bad decision not putting plans in place for something like that happening

@coulditbecominghome the current situation is that older people do pay for their own care if they have savings - and if they have dementia can be expected to sell their homes to do so.

Fully agree with child benefit being restricted to 2 children.

I’ve never thought of it like that but I’m not far off tbh

@Upamountain43

i think a lot of people need to look at the population timebomb we are looking at in this country - many countries are starting to pay people to have children or else they are going to be in a complete mess in a decade or so.

These children are the ones who are going to have to pay for your pension, health and care in old age - its typical short term purely for votes thinking that has typified British politics for years.

No they're not. Masses of jobs are going to be automated or offshored, climate change is going to shrink the percentage of livable land, and worldwide the population is still greatly increasing. The earth doesn't need more people (and I say that as someone with more than 2 children, who appreciates that this is not a sustainable choice).

@Cam77 they actually go to private school, but even if they didn’t, that argument annoys me. Most of us pay tax to pay for things like healthcare and education and benefits. Some of us pay more than others. I pay a lot and I also employ others who pay tax, so I feel like I pay my fair share and so does DH.

However I am willing to admit that I’m in the minority

I know someone who had 5 kids as husband low paid and they got more tax credits each time. This was before the cap came in. She told me once got 300.00 a week in just tax credits. She always made digs about working moms and she chose to be there for her kids. Its come to bite her on the bum now though as they are gradually leaving school and getting apprenticeships and one going to uni so its reduced. She tried to stop one going to apprenticeship cause of benefits. He moved out to live with grandparent as fell out.

They need to give people to options to get off benefits imho. With 2 adults working fulltime having to claim benefits to top up piss poor wages I dont think we should be blaming people for having more children than they can afford. We should have a system where working full time doesn't mean you need any top ups of uc. People could then see how much money they had left over and make their minds up if they can afford it then.

I agree with the comment about restricting larger council properties to 3 bedrooms max.

@Billben

Fully agree with child benefit being restricted to 2 children.

It is not child benefit that is restricted - families of multiple children get child benefit for all of them. The state pension (which incidentally is one of the 'benefits' that IS taxed) it is given to all who have the necessary NI contributions (and if they don't have them - they get pension credit anyway which is worth a lot more) It is annoying that everyone says pension is the biggest benefit cost - it is only big because so many millions of people are entitled to it and it is not a 'benefit' per se (pension credit for the poorest pensioners is)

In UK people are free to have as many kids as they want. No breach of human rights. Government can only afford to help support two. The other kids still get free health care and schooling. People should consider their circumstances and their ability to financially support kids before having them. When I had my children small there was child benefit and that was it. No government top ups unless unemployed.

@BarbarianMum but what about the ones who haven't saved enough or anything?

Plus not everyone who has dementia has to sell their house for their care.

@Bigassbeebuzzbuzz

They need to give people to options to get off benefits imho. With 2 adults working fulltime having to claim benefits to top up piss poor wages I dont think we should be blaming people for having more children than they can afford. We should have a system where working full time doesn't mean you need any top ups of uc. People could then see how much money they had left over and make their minds up if they can afford it then.

Maybe the better way is not to have any child related benefits therefore making parents ensure they can afford by choices they make re children, jobs, hours worked and where they live etc. Would naturally lower the birth rate, we’d have more money for schools etc and still have free choice on family size. We shouldn’t be encouraging people to have children that others have to pay for.

@Wheretobuy

I agree with the comment about restricting larger council properties to 3 bedrooms max.

Most local authorities have a LONG list of large families waiting for larger properties already anyway.

[quote coulditbecominghome]@lynsey91 so you don't have this unicorn insurance then? I'm shocked!

How come your own parents weren't so enlightened? [/quote]
How do you know they weren't? They didn't churn out child after child even though almost 70 years ago there was not as much choice of contraception. They also managed not to have any "accidental pregnancies" which are so common now

@Wheretobuy

I agree with the comment about restricting larger council properties to 3 bedrooms max.

Why?

What is one bedroom is needed for a disabled child?
What if there is a blended family?
What if a grandparent comes to stay?
What if someone becomes a kinship carer? (I happen to know someone with 3 bio kids who took on her nephews due their mum's drug abuse, should those 5 kids be crammed into 2 bedrooms?)

No they're not.

Err @OverTheRubicon plenty of countries do incentivise.

How do you know they weren't?

Well how did you end up in the family then @lynsey91?

Yeah, just let the "extra" kids starve

On one hand-
Nobody, absolutely nobody has the "right" to have any children.
If we do, then they are our responsibility to feed, clothe, house etc for at least 18 years. Not the governments, unless the government agencies remove them.

That said, is it fair, if, for example, a woman leaves her abusive husband with their three kids, the husband refuses to pay CM, and the woman is left struggling? It is a sexist policy, IMO. And could possibly leave women and children stuck in dangerous situations to avoid poverty.