Two Child Limit

[MobilityCat]

Will you be affected? Campaigners have lost their legal challenge to the government's two-child limit on welfare payments.
They had argued the policy breached parents' and children's human rights. The Supreme Court dismissed their case.
The rule, which came into force in April 2017, restricts child tax credit and universal credit to the first two children in a family, with a few exceptions.
It was one of George Osborne's most debated austerity measures.
The policy has affected families of about one million children. Campaigners described the decision as "hugely disappointing".
Full story here www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-57776103

@Graphista you’re FAR from a burden and exactly the exception i mentioned in my post.

You’re right, though, we do have VERY similar backgrounds and I’d do well to remember how bleak things were for me at several points and that, despite being quite poor compared to many, we have it good now largely down to luck. Thank you. I’ll try to think about how easily what I write could come across.

[quote Graphista]@lynsey91 wealthy families with large families don't attract the same level or amount of criticism, nothing near. They can also easily afford to ignore it.

I think you are lost @Spanielstail the 50s are behind us.

Agreed [/quote]
No, but wealthy families should still get criticism for having large families. I don't care how many millions they have, they are still adding to the overpopulation

[quote Graphista]@thehop

Maybe cos I'm kinda still "in it"? I think sometimes when people manage to get out of "it" they can start to forget how it felt, how hard it was and also if it was a while back, well things have become much worse in recent years due to this govt.

I left home at 17 (abusive home), lodged in a house, low paid job and barely getting by. Later after evening classes etc and going to uni first time when I was first nursing I was doing comparatively much better.

That was the case for several years.

Then when ex and I split I was initially a single mum on benefits. I well remember - 18 years later! Going into my local council to get housing benefit form and the barely 18 year old council assistant giving me an utterly filthy look and making a derogatory comment about me - and about dd (basically saying she shouldn't have been born!) to her colleague within my earshot.

My nursing registration had lapsed by this stage and so I was job hunting for anything that would fit around childcare. At several job interviews I was asked illegal questions about childcare, my fertility, my personal life...

Found a job that worked for me but didn't pay great so was still eligible for housing benefit. This made it harder to find a place to live and eventually my (Tory surprisingly) intervened on my behalf. This was because I was living in an area where I had "no connections" as it was where my ex had been posted to with army, so the council were claiming it wasn't their responsibility to house me and private landlords wouldn't take on those on benefits. Dd and I were very nearly homeless - turns out not for the first time.

So, with MPs help got a home and had a job and settled into that fairly well, but knew it wasn't sustainable as the income wasn't enough.

Went back to uni with support of course but still meant a low income, I was fine with that at the time as I saw it as temporary, the plan being of course that having this degree would lead to better paid work hopefully a career.

2 weeks after finishing uni I was stopped at a crossroads with traffic lights on red when some numpty texting ran into me, shoving me into the road of the other traffic meaning I was hit twice, purely luck due to the quick reactions of a 3rd driver that I wasn't hit 3 times. Whiplash, busted leg and arm. Checked over at hospital and aside from the aforementioned they saw no other damage. Unfortunately this is because soft tissue and nerve damage doesn't tend to show on x-rays and the effects didn't properly start to show straight away. Surgery was considered and I was assessed the problem is that from what they can tell the worst of the damage is right near where the nerves are concentrated in the lower back and they fear that surgery would be fairly high risk paralysis wise. Because I can still walk for now they feel the risks outweigh the potential (but not guaranteed) benefits.

All of this, plus the childhood stuff catching up to me caused me to have a breakdown with psychosis at the end of that summer.

I made the decision at this point to move closer to family for much needed support. Ex majorly kicked off at this and tried to get residency of dd even though he barely saw her. This was of course more stress.

Moved to near family and admittedly against advice I went back to full time work as a single mum because I hated the stigma of being on benefits.

My degree was a factor but I still had the constraints of childcare to work around so no longer only nmw jobs available to me but not loads more pay either.

First company i worked for were great but went bust as a result of the 2008 crash.

I Managed to quickly find another job but my line manager in that (which I didn't meet till I started there) was a gaslighting, nasty bully! After just a couple of months there dealing with her I could feel myself headed to another breakdown. I went off sick, saw an advisor at dwp who reassured me I'd not be considered to have left voluntarily under the circumstances and I left that job.

Unfortunately I hadn't acted soon enough and succumbed to another breakdown, then I had a fall caused by the nerve issues which also made them worse and was immobile for a time, with the concern it may become permanent. Luckily it wasn't but it was a big set back health wise

I've been unemployed since then.

I've had times when I've been doing better health wise and actually seriously job hunted, applied for hundreds of jobs, wasn't at all "fussy" but despite 2 degrees, other qualifications, good work references (line managers boss gave me good ref) I haven't even been given an interview. Employers simply won't even entertain disabled/mentally ill applicants in a lot of cases. And yes I tried not telling them that stuff but that then leaves a huge unexplained gap on my cv.

I even had support from a charity that helps disabled/ill people back into work but even they found that employers were increasingly not wanting to even interview people with long gaps in their cv, plus companies they had previously worked with who were more open minded had also gone bust due to the 2008 crash. There was a group of 12 of us they were working with at this time and only 2 found jobs and that was very much who the applicants knew.

My life has been very much 2 steps forward 3 steps back since split from ex.

I'm a hard worker, I've held jobs from shelf stacking to nurse management and senior admin roles, every employer I've worked with has given me good refs after I left, but it's very much an employers market and has been for some years now.

I was hoping the rise in wfh with the pandemic would mean I might be able to find a role totally working from home in an admin role but I've been looking and every time the employers want someone with more recent experience (even though I'm perfectly capable of doing the roles) and/or someone who can go into a physical office at least once a month which at the moment I cannot do.

I'm not 100% health wise anyway at the moment but I hate not working I hate the lack of mental stimulation, having colleagues, feeling "useful"

I hate feeling a burden, being pitied, or indeed being vilified and demonised.

Being constantly told by govt, msm, sm, society in general that you're not only useless but a burden sucks!

[/quote]
When I posted the thread I had just read the article, copied the opening paragraph and posed the question "Will it affect you" I am a new poster and have been suspected of being a journalist, of not telling the truth etc. I have followed my thread, occasionally explaining a point but was surprised at the hornets nest I have opened.

You seem to be a clear headed, determined person who has suffered a lot from unkind people. I saw a lot of cultural baggage displayed, in the thread, but the truth of the matter is no one's better than another. We each get a hand dealt at birth and that's what we have to bet on and bargain with.

There's been some privilege displayed, along with political agenda but a number of people had life changing experiences through no fault of their own and anyway for whatever reason we have all made mistakes which have cost us.

I know we don’t know each other very well, but I went through a very similar experience, and if you want to discuss stuff I'm up for it. I was moved by your life experiences and it made me review some of my thinking. Thank you for sharing, you've made a positive difference.

Graphista - your situation sounds awful and I'm sorry about you not being able to get a job or be appreciated. You only have one dd?

Graphista I know you won't want them, but you know I mean them when I profer unmumsnetty hugs.

I agree with the ruling. Of course there are reasons some people will need financial help beyond the 2 child limit which have been listed..but there are also reasons not to pay, which I personally agree with.

Actually the majority of what we all achieve is down to luck, luck who are parents are, luck with our health, luck with our continued health, luck luck luck!

Truth is whatever beliefs better enable you to manipulate reality to you advantage. If achievement is down to luck we should all give up ambition and hard work and strive to be luckier. Once we've mastered how to be lucky, instead of saving and investing our spare money, we can just buy lottery tickets.

@RandomLondoner

Actually the majority of what we all achieve is down to luck, luck who are parents are, luck with our health, luck with our continued health, luck luck luck!

Truth is whatever beliefs better enable you to manipulate reality to you advantage. If achievement is down to luck we should all give up ambition and hard work and strive to be luckier. Once we've mastered how to be lucky, instead of saving and investing our spare money, we can just buy lottery tickets.

Oh do be quiet. You know the PP didn't mean that. You come with me to work for a week and then tell me luck is negligible. Wonder if you'd rather be born into poverty, abuse and neglect with no role models than a loving household with a decent income? Noone is saying it's all luck, just it's a huge factor. I was indeed lucky to be born to working class parents who loved their children, worked and strives for better for all of us. There were 5 of us- far more usual in those days, especially a Catholic family- and due to that favourable upbringing we (and all our children so far) have professional jobs, so the positive cycle continues.

Well a hell of lot of people believe the planet IS overpopulated and so how many children people have IS relevant.

I used to believe birth rate was an issue but the people who believe this are all wrong. Human birth rate is falling below replacement rate right now, the reason population will continue to rise for a few more decades is that people who are already alive now will live longer, due to better nutrition and healthcare.

In other words, rising population is not being caused by high birth-rates, it's being caused by falling death-rates. Which the people who now aren't going to die young mostly think is a good thing.

(There's a whole BBC documentary series on this, don't know if it's still on iplayer or youtube.)

Oh do be quiet. You know the PP didn't mean that

I knew what she meant. I was merely pointing out the shortcomings in her statement. Do you advise the people in those circumstances to be luckier? Exactly what constructive outcome is achieved by attributing achievements to luck?

@RandomLondoner

Well a hell of lot of people believe the planet IS overpopulated and so how many children people have IS relevant.

I used to believe birth rate was an issue but the people who believe this are all wrong. Human birth rate is falling below replacement rate right now, the reason population will continue to rise for a few more decades is that people who are already alive now will live longer, due to better nutrition and healthcare.

In other words, rising population is not being caused by high birth-rates, it's being caused by falling death-rates. Which the people who now aren't going to die young mostly think is a good thing.

(There's a whole BBC documentary series on this, don't know if it's still on iplayer or youtube.)

Well good if the birth rate is actually falling. We need to have far less people on the planet.

The amount of people in the UK alone is just ridiculous. Everywhere is so overcrowded and so many services pushed to their absolute limit.

The housing situation is a joke and if we have more and more people it will, obviously get worse. The job situation is not much better either

I used to believe birth rate was an issue but the people who believe this are all wrong. Human birth rate is falling below replacement rate right now, the reason population will continue to rise for a few more decades is that people who are already alive now will live longer, due to better nutrition and healthcare

For planet earth, this is a good thing, as it can only support x amount of human beings/ animals/ plants with adequate space and nutrition.

From a socio - economic perspective, its a huge challenge if not close to disaster. An aging population will cost money for health care, retirement income, leisure... all this needs to be provided by younger people through employment.

As for the 2 child policy, it's a good thing.

@Thehop thank you. I wasn't meaning you had made me feel that way (a burden) but that these sort of discussions and also the way benefit recipients are spoken of in society generally.

At 29 I never thought I'd ever have to claim, I never had before even at points when I would have been eligible I always "managed", I skipped meals, walked everywhere etc. I couldn't have predicted all that befell me over the next 5 years, it was one bloody hit after another!

When I had my first breakdown and was describing the preceding 5 years to the cpn assessing me, by the point I got to describing almost ending up homeless (so not even the worst stuff) she was like "I'm amazed you didn't have a breakdown much earlier! I couldn't have coped with all that"

On the day she visited my home was spotless, fridge and cupboards full of food, dd had been all dressed nice as it was photo day at school, I was smartly dressed in pressed clothes (but in desperate need of a shower which I was afraid to do alone), hair tied up and "presentable".

The social worker (because dd was still little a social worker also had to attend as protocol, I was TERRIFIED I would lose dd) commented that even her home wasn't that tidy!

But I couldn't cope showering alone, I was scared of falling and didn't want to put dd in the position of dealing with that. I couldn't cope with cooking as I was overly anxious about potential food poisoning, food hygiene, using sharp knives I didn't trust myself not to cut something I shouldn't including myself or dd, even though I didn't allow dd in the kitchen when I was cooking. I was washing all laundry at least 5 times per load, every surface was getting cleaned and disinfected several times a day...

You get the idea.

I genuinely was scared at first to tell them what I was really thinking and doing and gradually they got it out of me. I burst into tears when I was telling the social worker that I hadn't cooked a meal for dd for a week, that I'd been feeding her cold ready made things (sausage rolls, ready made salads etc), McDonald's and supermarket cafe dinners. I was sure they were gonna remove her for that alone. Sw was lovely and remarked, "you're getting 5 a day into her which is more than I manage with my kids most days, she's not ill, she's getting enough to eat. Honestly you're doing a lot better than many of my clients. Some of them are feeding their kids McDonalds all the time and certainly no salad or fruit!"

I literally had to be walked into the bathroom for a shower with constant reassurance that I was safe and a cpn standing outside the door in case I fell with me leaving the door unlocked.

A friend took me grocery shopping the day after and I couldn't remember how to use an atm. She had to get my card out my purse and checked with me I could remember the pin before she put it in the machine. I don't know why I remembered the pin!

Absolutely terrifying experience I would not wish on my worst enemy.

You seem to be a clear headed, determined person who has suffered a lot from unkind people

That's genuinely moved me to tears.

but the truth of the matter is no one's better than another

That's something my parents drummed into me. That everyone matters, that everyone is born the same and dies the same (and goes loo the same!)

They were both working class people, literally both born into glasgow slums at the end of wwii. They both remember when they moved into homes that had indoor loos and running water. Dad joined the army basically to escape the poverty, having left school at 14. He also went eve classes to get the basic qualifications to join the army. Mum worked in shops at first, then got a cleaning job that was early mornings that meant she could take advantage of classes for army dependents. This was how she eventually got her qualifications. She then became a bookkeeper which meant better hours for her with 3 young kids and a bit better pay. Both worked their way up, dad being an SM by the time he retired.

I've worked in jobs where I was working alongside and even the boss of some people who had fairly privileged backgrounds and there was sometimes a fair amount of tongue biting going on! Especially with the young ones who were privately educated, just out of uni, never been skint their whole lives who thought they knew it all!

Thank you for your kind comments

@woodhill yes I only have one dd - but as it's relevant to the thread I'll say that wasn't by choice. It turns out I have a rare medical condition that only flares during the first labour. Thereafter it means that if I'd ever become pregnant again it would likely have been fatal to me. Certainly if it had progressed to 2nd trimester. I'd have loved a big family. I lost 3 before dd too. (I have endo too)

@Puffalicious bless you thank you. I'll take them with the kindness intended. I was also raised Catholic (well sort of - when it suited!)

Noone is saying it's all luck, just it's a huge factor.

Exactly!

That was a very unkind and ill thought out post

Exactly what constructive outcome is achieved by attributing achievements to luck?

Govts and other organisations can serve people far better if they at least acknowledge the part that luck plays!

Do you really think Johnson would be PM if he weren't very lucky at every stage of his life?! He's hardly an extraordinarily good leader or even politician!

@lynsey91 I would urge you to learn a lot more about the housing crisis. It's not purely a population issue. There are tons of homes unoccupied just sitting empty and costing the country money. Then there is significant issues with legislation, social housing, affordable housing and specialist housing for the disabled. You might also be interested to learn that there are a significant number of MPs that are landlords and even property developers who vote AGAINST measures to improve housing regs, to provide more housing (which would bring housing prices down), to give tenants more rights, to make developers build affordable and suitable housing...

It's criminal to be honest! Imo it's a conflict of interest and corrupt.

Developers are also not required to ensure infrastructure is in place for new developments, local councils are left sorting that mess out.

I've been homeless 3 times. The first 2 were due to my mh. The last was due to the landlords business (not the landlord side) went bust and they went bankrupt. Councils won't/can't do anything until you are actually homeless, they then struggle to find properties that are suitable.

I'm currently under-occupying since dd moved out. I'm LUCKY that I'm in Scotland where the govt is mitigating the bedroom tax but it means I have to reapply every quarter, which is fairly stressful and means for the first month of that quarter I'm usually paid a week or so late for housing costs. Again I'm LUCKY that I'm with a housing association and they understand the issue and don't penalise me for this if I can't pay rent exactly on time or in full, I'm generally good at budgeting and have some money set aside for this but a couple of times I've had other unexpected expenses come up (freezer one time due to power cut, washer another time). I've been trying to find a suitable one bedroom place but few are coming up - private or social - and so far I've missed out as others have been deemed in greater need. There are some one bed supported housing options but I'm currently deemed "not disabled enough" even though it's likely in the next 5 years I will be and then it will be even more difficult to manage a house move. I'm waiting to hear back about that from an agency.

We could also really use a govt that was more open minded regarding alternative housing solutions - like young part carer lodgers placed with elderly/disabled housemates, like single person abodes designed in small spaces, like co-ops... they're still so mired in outdated housing models.

There's so much that needs to change to have a healthy, happy - and ultimately productive society.

It frustrates me that while we have the tech/infrastructure that means I COULD work from home yet I cannot find any work!

I have a brain which is still functioning on a cognitive level for now yet I can't use it to earn.

Employers don't think I'm worth employing.

@Thelnebriati

I think the first shitty thing they did was redefine working tax credits as a benefit.

Lol. They were always a benefit. "Tax credits" was a misnomer used deliberately by Brown to make it sound like they were not benefits. But they always have been. They never had any relationship to tax or tax thresholds.

@Lagomtransplant

Well, total fertility rate is 1.6 and in a free fall. Roughly only 18% of women (down from 25% before the introduction of the limit) go on to have a third or more, so it's a bit of a moot point for majority of the people. Especially when you consider that almost half of women who had a birth of third order or more since then fall in the category where they, or their partner, earn over the child benefit limit.

On the side note, I work in a place looking at numbers like these, so I'm not pulling the stats out of thin air.

That's very interesting. Few families had a third child to begin with so such a large reduction in families going from 2 to 3 children in the exact period of the cut would at face value indicate that the majority who decided to do so were doing so in the expectation of state support. Not having a third child that they thought they could support then a change in life circumstances changing that. So it seems that your statistics back up the Government's assumption that many people who had large families and claimed benefits were not resorting to benefits for help when life went wrong in an unexpected way, but planning to use them as a permanent funding method before even having the third child.

I feel very, very sorry for the children of parents who have them without bothering to take responsibility for how they will support them. But I also see where the anger came from when many people were apparently out for a free ride at everyone else's expense - many of whom can't afford more than two kids themselves as they're taxed so highly and pay for their children's needs themselves!

It's all such a mess in the UK now with people so divided because some people pay SO much tax and see nothing for it. Shit schools, shit healthcare, and everyone else still moaning that they should pay more. While others work super hard but pay next to nothing really, nothing like the cost of even their healthcare, their own kids' educations, their own pensions. And yet others never pay a damn thing and expect everything for free. It will not be an easy thing to fix.

I think if the family is working at least one part one full and still struggling which most are on housing and food costs then it should be optional for all at half rate over 2 for example

Also most families I know have significantly more than 2 children, so alot of the comments are stereotypical

Then the families you know are not the norm, the average number of children per family is less than 2 in the UK. Many stop at 1 or 2 because they don't feel they can provide for more financially. So those choosing to have more than most people shouldn't really expect everyone else to fund it. The stats posted above seem to indicate that some fall on unexpected hard times after having larger families, but a large proportion of those that used to have larger families have stopped doing so now that financial support for that was withdrawn, which means those people were having additional children knowing that a) other taxpayers were already paying for the costs of raising their existing children; and b) they were planning to have more on the assumption that the taxpayer would continue to do that no matter how many they have.

In a world of many parents struggling to support their own kids, taxing them even more to pay for large families that other people have deliberately decided to have knowing they can't support them doesn't seem fair, does it?

It's the kids I feel sorry for. Those who have landed on hard times unexpectedly, and those whose parents chose to have kids expecting everyone else to pay. If people had been a bit more responsible maybe we wouldn't have ended up here, IDK.

@Themeparklover

Also most families I know have significantly more than 2 children, so alot of the comments are stereotypical

Also that you find the examination of national data that doesn't fit with your personal anecdotes to be "stereotypical" is rather amusing. So outlier anecdata is preferred is it?

i think a lot of people need to look at the population timebomb we are looking at in this country - many countries are starting to pay people to have children or else they are going to be in a complete mess in a decade or so.

Do you mean in regard to needing ever more people to look after the elderly?

I agree it's an issue but it's only going to keep getting worse as the population grows. There's definitely an argument for struggling for a generation or two in order to reign in overpopulation. But of course that will be pretty shit for some people in the interim.

@SourAppleChew

i think a lot of people need to look at the population timebomb we are looking at in this country - many countries are starting to pay people to have children or else they are going to be in a complete mess in a decade or so.

Do you mean in regard to needing ever more people to look after the elderly?

I agree it's an issue but it's only going to keep getting worse as the population grows. There's definitely an argument for struggling for a generation or two in order to reign in overpopulation. But of course that will be pretty shit for some people in the interim.

Yeah this argument is so short sighted isn't it? Unless we start to populate other planets, the population cannot grow exponentially.

The answer is responsible Government with an end to Ponzi schemes like public sector unfunded pensions, unfunded social care, unfunded state pensions etc and tax invested over a taxpayer's life to fund their share of such costs in retirement. Funding such things from current tax will always leave them open to demographic times bombs. But with a collapsing climate, likely famines and water shortages etc, continuing to increase the population is obviously not the answer.

@Themeparklover

Also most families I know have significantly more than 2 children, so alot of the comments are stereotypical

I agree. Most of my neighbours with children have 3 or more. I am talking fairly young children.

Where I lived up until 3 years ago (150 miles away) most of my neighbours had 3 or more.

We have three children - our “second child” was twins. Conceived naturally with no family history. We don’t qualify for child benefit even though we could really use it in circumstances that were completely out of our control. One maternity leave for two kids and childcare costs were so high I had to leave my job and am now struggling to get back into the market.

I think it's really short-sighted to reduce support for children when we have an ageing population that will need a young population.

@lpal

We have three children - our “second child” was twins. Conceived naturally with no family history. We don’t qualify for child benefit even though we could really use it in circumstances that were completely out of our control. One maternity leave for two kids and childcare costs were so high I had to leave my job and am now struggling to get back into the market.

I thought there was an exception if you had twins? Or something like you had been raped.