Two Child Limit

[MobilityCat]

Will you be affected? Campaigners have lost their legal challenge to the government's two-child limit on welfare payments.
They had argued the policy breached parents' and children's human rights. The Supreme Court dismissed their case.
The rule, which came into force in April 2017, restricts child tax credit and universal credit to the first two children in a family, with a few exceptions.
It was one of George Osborne's most debated austerity measures.
The policy has affected families of about one million children. Campaigners described the decision as "hugely disappointing".
Full story here www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-57776103

Even with benifits it dosent mean parents spend the money on the kids (this coming from a poor background of split shoes, toilet roll sanitary towel, incomplete & too small school uniform)

No one on here wants or condones starving children in poverty & difficult futures.

Yes we need to tax the corporations & stop the tax dodging / cheating.

Yes we need to take some sort of personal responsibility

Even with 3 children, you only need to work 16 hours to be able to claim for all 3 children. only a bit more than 3 hours a day, surely that is feasible for most. The difficult time therefore is before all children have a free nursery place/school. Under 3 though don't cost massively, so even though it would mean tigtening the belt, it doesn't have to mean that the children don't get to eat properly. And that's for those whose nrp doesn't pay a penny.

Well you're not up to speed with the benefit regulation changes are you. The 16 hour rule you're referring to is part of the entitlement to Working Tax Credits - regulations. All new claimants can no longer claim Tax Credits, they have to claim universal credit instead. And any 3rd or more children born after 2017 will not be included in Universal Credit or a Tax Credits claim (if they're a legacy benefit claimant). Please stop spouting this nonsense. You have you're information wrong.

@SchrodingersImmigrant I agree with you re corporate taxes - the govt could tighten legislation, close loopholes if they so choose - but a Tory govt will never do that, they don't even properly pursue tax evaders.

@Kalvinette to be fair people know it's cheaper not to have dc or to only have 1 or 2 - but people and peoples lives are more complex than that. Relationships break down and couples want to have a child that is biologically both of theirs, or they may be trying to heal their dysfunctional childhood through parenting, or contraceptive failures, access to contraception is increasingly more difficult for many, it's damn near impossible to get sterilisation on the nhs, abortion failures, not knowing they're pregnant, not wanting an abortion (which is as much as right of choice as having one is), being in abusive/controlling relationships, religious factors...

It's not as black and white as many on here - who must of course lead completely blameless lives themselves - think 

At what point would you be financially rewarded…once a woman shows proof of menopause?

Excellent point!

@Belleoverandover quite right the "free" childcare isn't really it's an overly complex system and is also messing up childcare providers

That’s assuming, rather naively, that the funds would go into the welfare bill. In reality they wouldn’t because there’s no political will to improve welfare payments.

Unfortunately true, this is not about a lack of available funds it's about a lack of political will.

But this is always the case with a Tory govt, they don't and never have believed in a welfare state, they barely truly believe in democracy! Except when it suits them

Someone I know said recently that their savings of £40,000 was now wiped out. They saved for a rainy day and, guess what, it rained.

I'm guessing they thought they shouldn't have had to use these savings?

'Family planning’ seems to have gone out the window.

I know you mean on a personal level but it's also true at a govt level. Many family planning and sexual health clinics have been closed or hours severely curtailed due to the cuts to the nhs

Graphista, the problem is you are trying to draw generalities from exceptional circumstances.

I disagree.

Abusive relationships are far more common than I think many realise, an estimated 2 to 2.5 mn adults in the Uk are in abusive relationships and that's widely considered by those working in the sphere to be a significant underestimate.

The pill has a 9% failure rate with typical use and it's a fairly reliable form of contraception, even the coil has a 1% failure rate

When you add all the various potential circumstances together, and take into consideration things like ease of access to contraception there is going to be a significant number of women with unplanned/unwanted 3rd pregnancies that they may not wish to abort (which is a deeply personal decision and should never be as a result of coercion either by a person or the state) or which they are pushed into keeping.

@Thehop do you really believe you work harder than ANYONE else in work? Do you think none of the things that happen to many others (divorce, bereavement, redundancy, global economic disaster) can happen to you? That's quite arrogant

The link between hard work and financial reward isn’t conclusive

Exactly! Especially in female dominated jobs/careers

@sleepygnome all those things you list don't apply to all benefits recipients. It's far more complex and nuances than that.

Is the extra money always spent on the dc anyway?

Nasty unnecessary and unfounded comment.

Just because a family or a person is in receipt of benefits doesn't automatically render them a neglectful parent - there are plenty of parents not on benefits who are neglectful and even abusive.

The vast majority of parents love and prioritise their dc. That comment says FAR more about you.

you’re looking at this the wrong way round. Most people who receive benefits work,
Ask yourself why they need propping up by the tax payer when they are earning a full salary

So true

Did anyone print out the benefits/immigration Bingo Cards?

They're completely obscured by this point - such a horrible thread in terms of responses and attitudes.

Lastly, I agree with all the posters who feel strongly that both parents, whether together or separate, have a duty to support whatever children they create. The UK is very lax on enforcing child support, and often its a pitiful amount compared to how much contribution a working resident parent makes.

This is true, disagree with rest of that post though

I agree enforcement on child support is terrible, but the problem is the cost of enforcement often way eclipses the sums recovered, so in those instances what would be the point?

1 the amounts involved should be higher anyway, they rarely come close to the actual 50% cost of raising a child

2 the current method of recovery isn't working and is an expensive and overly complex system. If cm was deducted at source for the majority (those on paye) it would be much cheaper and that would free up funds/resources to chase up the rest

3 this thread is FULL of people bemoaning the state supporting children, why not apply that same outrage to the many mostly fathers who are not supporting the children they created?

You haven't understood the benefits poverty trap at all. When I say 'its hard to get yourself off benefits'' what you hear is ''I cant be bothered to work as hard as you''
That's not what I hear. I hear 'it's really hard to get our of the poverty trap, the chances of being able to is low, so there's no point in trying'

What I'm saying is that it is indeed hard, without a doubt, but trying to get out is worth all the dedication, effort and positive belief, because if you persist, you will likely get out. Maybe not soon enough, but you will.

@Graphista I’m not arrogant at all.

I’ve left an abusive marriage and had to be divorced. Had another relationship break down and been a single parent to my sons for 10 years before I met my husband.

I had to work nights to get qualifications that enabled me to work nights, or days with them at home. Then round school. I did book keeping, ironing and cleaning. Then registered as a childminder, then got jobs in nurseries.

I have had tax credits tip up my income now and again. I was very grateful for it and wholeheartedly support whatever I pay in tax being used to provide the same for other families.

But I still agree with the 2 child limit.

@Graphista

Oh and I know the link between hard work and financial reward doesn’t exist.

I’ve got myself an early years degree, 15 years experience, worked my way up to baby room manager and get minimum wage plus 5p an hour. I work my arse off and have a tonne of responsibility for very little reward.

Did Dervel just suggest food stamps for mothers if their partners default on child support? Because benefits 'disempower' people?
FOTTFSOFATFOSM. Benefits are all that's between you and being on the street. Its not having the pittance that disempowers you, its the red tape.
You sound utterly clueless.

In a society run by people who were not complete sadists, the State would pay the child support, and recover it from the defaulting parent.

Totally agree

@Hertsgirl10 well said

@woodhill in theory wages can be garnished for cm, in reality it takes YEARS to get to the stage where the cms do this - they're Fucking useless for the most part. In addition they are stymied by certain rules. So eg my ex almost always avoided this by only paying every 3-4 months. What he'd do is not pay until csa/cms started chasing him, then feed them a sob story, then he'd make one payment or partial payment which was then regarded as a "good faith act" and they would then stop pursuing. "He's paying now" no he's not - he's doing JUST enough to get you off his back and avoid an attachment of earnings and when he knows you've bought his bullshit he'll start it all over again.

On the forums frequented by absent dads they advise each other on the loopholes and how to exploit them.

There are some shitheads on this thread.

Yep! Rather too many BUT I think the poster you were annoyed with was being sarcastic

as longs as the benefits a person receives doesn't go above the average wage (not sure what that is) is what they are entitled to receive.

The problem is the average wage is artificially low as the govt has been subsidising employers for decades.

forgive me if I’m being dense, but how is being given food stamps to ensure children get some form of food a punishment?

It's treating those on benefits as if they are stupid, feckless rather than simply poor!

It implies we don't gaf about our kids, that we're incapable of budgeting, that we make poor decisions about what to spend on, that we're idiots who need to be taught how to spend our limited funds!

It also fails to recognise/account for the fact that sometimes funds need to be diverted to other needs - eg heating, clothes

When you have mps and pms wasting far far greater sums of money on utter crap!

I hold 2 degrees, a number of post graduate qualifications, I'm an experienced administrator including bookkeeping. I'm perfectly capable of managing a tight budget and have been doing so for decades. When it was necessary I went without food so my child didn't. I've always made sure she is fed, clothed and cared for and has had access to and been supported in engaging with education. I've also managed both of our different disabilities which with dds has included whole days travelling to and from hospital appointments as there isn't a hospital near us that had the resources or personnel able to deal with it.

Then we have people like Rees mogg - who has 6 children, yet NOBODY on this thread has remotely criticised as far as I can tell the wealthy people having large families, even when they are just as guilty at least from an environmental perspective

Johnson - who we aren't even sure how many kids he has

Or the likes of iain Duncan smith wasting £39 on one meal for himself. I could've fed dd for a week on that!

Hell look at all mps expenses - they're extortionate!

Yet the people on the lowest incomes are accused of being incapable of managing a budget and spending wisely?! Fuck off with that!!

I just know it seems to be a policy they have in America

America is shit in regards to attitudes to and implementation of welfare policies

I will say this though is protecting the ego’s/pride of benefit recipients really of greater significance than getting food in hungry children’s bellies?

That's a deeply insulting and ignorant comment!

I’d suggest means testing or whatever to ensure it got into the hands of those who need it, but unfortunately that just adds cost and hassle and takes away from the limited resources we could distribute as a society.

Benefits already are mostly means tested, very few aren't

The view I currently hold is I really don’t agree with notions of deserving/undeserving poor.

Your previous comments massively contradict this statement.

There is something called the tragedy of the commons

This whole paragraph makes me think you are far more knowledgeable than you claim - at least at a theoretic level. Not on a practical/reality level though

@AudacityBaby thank you and well said!

Even with 3 children, you only need to work 16 hours to be able to claim for all 3 children

That's exactly the thing that is no longer true!

To comment you really need to at least know the basics of what is under discussion.

However, the very vast majority should be able to get out of the trap, if they care to put the investment into doing so

Please DO go and learn thoroughly how the current benefit system ACTUALLY works (not just what is supposed to happen in theory with regard to when payments should be made, when they should be stopped, UC assessment periods, work commitment contracts) and also the current employment market (particularly given many companies have gone bust with covid impact, many made redundant after decades working for the same employer) and how hard it is to even get a reply to a job application - let alone an interview even less an actual job if you've had more than around 2 years out of work, or if you're over 50 or disabled or sick...

THEN come back and say how fucking easy it is to get out of the benefits trap! "If one just applies oneself" I mean seriously!

@Dervel food stamps should be all that's available for those deadbeats who don't pay for their children.
The fact that it's 2021 and men are STILL "getting away" with not paying for their children and leaving the resident parent to rely on the state is just despicable.

@Thelnebriati exactly - many on thread utterly clueless as to the reality

@vivainsomnia where is your evidence that backs up what you're claiming that if people just "tried hard enough" they can get out of the poverty/benefits trap?

In addition you're failing to account for how it feels - not only disheartening and many obstacles, but bloody terrifying if it goes wrong!

This is the main reason many on benefits are reluctant to try certain things to get off benefits - because they've experienced/seen what can and does happen when eg a temp job messes everything up, housing benefit gets stopped too soon, wages don't go in on time (or even too soon with the way UC works!)

@Thehop your comment was arrogant. Not everyone CAN "work hard" and even those who can aren't necessarily paid accordingly

You and I have very similar histories, yet your takeaway is to make it harder for those in similar positions rather than easier.

I recognise I have been very lucky in some ways - being academically able, good health when younger enabling me to work full time and study alongside, having the ability to manage a tight budget...

Doesn't mean I don't also recognise that there are others not so fortunate/able

@Graphista o recognise there are some less fortunate.

You are honestly a better person than me in that way because my struggles made me think “if I can bloody do it anyone can”

I’m not stupid, I know there are exceptions that I’d love there to be an exemption made for.....I volunteered for a good stretch at a good bank.....but I can’t help but still agree with the 2 child limit on the whole.

@Graphista I am critical of any family having lots of children rich or poor.

So many well off people have 3 or more children. William and Kate have 3 even though William has preached about overpopulation. Total hypocrites.

It definitely seems to be fashionable to have 3 or more. Look at the Beckhams, the Ramseys, Holly Willoughby, Rochelle & Marvin Humes, Jamie & Jools Oliver, Kimberley Walsh, Kerry Katona, Katie Price. The list goes on and on

@Graphista I am critical of any family having lots of children rich or poor

But we don't care what you think. Your notions on overpopulation are ill informed and shortsighted, and your opinions on whether my third, fourth and fifth children should exist or not are of no relevance, to anyone, anywhere.

I was 22-23 weeks pregnant with DC3 when our circumstances changed drastically and unexpectedly due to the pandemic. I doubt I’d have survived psychologically had I even been able to arrange a termination at that stage. It’s sad reading this thread.

[quote claralara42]**@Graphista I am critical of any family having lots of children rich or poor

But we don't care what you think. Your notions on overpopulation are ill informed and shortsighted, and your opinions on whether my third, fourth and fifth children should exist or not are of no relevance, to anyone, anywhere.[/quote]
Well a hell of lot of people believe the planet IS overpopulated and so how many children people have IS relevant.

How anyone can honestly say the planet is not overpopulated I really don't know. Anyone with a brain knows it is.

People may bleat on about an ageing population but the answer can never ever be to keep on adding to the numbers.

I dread to think what the future holds but thankfully I won't be around and don't have the guilt of adding to the population.

Also all the people I mentioned have plenty of money and are probably unlikely to find themselves in hard time but ordinary people having more than 2 is really rather stupid as they have no idea what the future holds.

Of course YOU don't care because you have more than 2 but I can assure you that many people disapprove

@lynsey91 would it surprise you to know that many people with more than two children think the choice you make isn’t ideal? Do you need their “approval” or have any interest in it?
It appears that most people don’t WANT large families. Some don’t want any children at all. I doubt any are making those decisions based on “approval”. If they are I would suggest they lack the maturity to be even adequate parents, but what I think of their life choices is fairly irrelevant.

mean it shouldn’t take a football player to make sure poor kids can eat lunch.

No it should be a parent

So many people have a bullshit excuse. People won't take the pill as they believe it makes them gain weight for example. In that case use condoms and a coil. Track your cycles and don't have sex at fertile times.

Don't have kids until you are in a long term secure marriage. People cheat, divorce etc and marriages break down but it's less likely you will seperate years down the line than having children a year or so after meeting someone you barely know.

Plan for the future as far as possible. We have a house owned with a mortgage. I have life insurance, critical illness Insurance so my mortgage is paid in the event of something happening. With my husband or I can pay it on our own. We could sell it and down size.

I know not everyone can do that but how about not having kids if you already are not working. Only have 1 if money is tight.

I don't understand having children when you are not working, don't have secure housing etc.

I also think budgeting is a major issue. I came across someone recently who explained they hadn't taken their child to the opticians appointment as they couldn't afford the bus. The child was drinking a can of pop and eating sweets. Neither were necessary and could have covered the bus fare.

Taking the bus costs more than a coke and sweets

I think you are lost @Spanielstail the 50s are behind us.

@thehop

Maybe cos I'm kinda still "in it"? I think sometimes when people manage to get out of "it" they can start to forget how it felt, how hard it was and also if it was a while back, well things have become much worse in recent years due to this govt.

I left home at 17 (abusive home), lodged in a house, low paid job and barely getting by. Later after evening classes etc and going to uni first time when I was first nursing I was doing comparatively much better.

That was the case for several years.

Then when ex and I split I was initially a single mum on benefits. I well remember - 18 years later! Going into my local council to get housing benefit form and the barely 18 year old council assistant giving me an utterly filthy look and making a derogatory comment about me - and about dd (basically saying she shouldn't have been born!) to her colleague within my earshot.

My nursing registration had lapsed by this stage and so I was job hunting for anything that would fit around childcare. At several job interviews I was asked illegal questions about childcare, my fertility, my personal life...

Found a job that worked for me but didn't pay great so was still eligible for housing benefit. This made it harder to find a place to live and eventually my (Tory surprisingly) intervened on my behalf. This was because I was living in an area where I had "no connections" as it was where my ex had been posted to with army, so the council were claiming it wasn't their responsibility to house me and private landlords wouldn't take on those on benefits. Dd and I were very nearly homeless - turns out not for the first time.

So, with MPs help got a home and had a job and settled into that fairly well, but knew it wasn't sustainable as the income wasn't enough.

Went back to uni with support of course but still meant a low income, I was fine with that at the time as I saw it as temporary, the plan being of course that having this degree would lead to better paid work hopefully a career.

2 weeks after finishing uni I was stopped at a crossroads with traffic lights on red when some numpty texting ran into me, shoving me into the road of the other traffic meaning I was hit twice, purely luck due to the quick reactions of a 3rd driver that I wasn't hit 3 times. Whiplash, busted leg and arm. Checked over at hospital and aside from the aforementioned they saw no other damage. Unfortunately this is because soft tissue and nerve damage doesn't tend to show on x-rays and the effects didn't properly start to show straight away. Surgery was considered and I was assessed the problem is that from what they can tell the worst of the damage is right near where the nerves are concentrated in the lower back and they fear that surgery would be fairly high risk paralysis wise. Because I can still walk for now they feel the risks outweigh the potential (but not guaranteed) benefits.

All of this, plus the childhood stuff catching up to me caused me to have a breakdown with psychosis at the end of that summer.

I made the decision at this point to move closer to family for much needed support. Ex majorly kicked off at this and tried to get residency of dd even though he barely saw her. This was of course more stress.

Moved to near family and admittedly against advice I went back to full time work as a single mum because I hated the stigma of being on benefits.

My degree was a factor but I still had the constraints of childcare to work around so no longer only nmw jobs available to me but not loads more pay either.

First company i worked for were great but went bust as a result of the 2008 crash.

I Managed to quickly find another job but my line manager in that (which I didn't meet till I started there) was a gaslighting, nasty bully! After just a couple of months there dealing with her I could feel myself headed to another breakdown. I went off sick, saw an advisor at dwp who reassured me I'd not be considered to have left voluntarily under the circumstances and I left that job.

Unfortunately I hadn't acted soon enough and succumbed to another breakdown, then I had a fall caused by the nerve issues which also made them worse and was immobile for a time, with the concern it may become permanent. Luckily it wasn't but it was a big set back health wise

I've been unemployed since then.

I've had times when I've been doing better health wise and actually seriously job hunted, applied for hundreds of jobs, wasn't at all "fussy" but despite 2 degrees, other qualifications, good work references (line managers boss gave me good ref) I haven't even been given an interview. Employers simply won't even entertain disabled/mentally ill applicants in a lot of cases. And yes I tried not telling them that stuff but that then leaves a huge unexplained gap on my cv.

I even had support from a charity that helps disabled/ill people back into work but even they found that employers were increasingly not wanting to even interview people with long gaps in their cv, plus companies they had previously worked with who were more open minded had also gone bust due to the 2008 crash. There was a group of 12 of us they were working with at this time and only 2 found jobs and that was very much who the applicants knew.

My life has been very much 2 steps forward 3 steps back since split from ex.

I'm a hard worker, I've held jobs from shelf stacking to nurse management and senior admin roles, every employer I've worked with has given me good refs after I left, but it's very much an employers market and has been for some years now.

I was hoping the rise in wfh with the pandemic would mean I might be able to find a role totally working from home in an admin role but I've been looking and every time the employers want someone with more recent experience (even though I'm perfectly capable of doing the roles) and/or someone who can go into a physical office at least once a month which at the moment I cannot do.

I'm not 100% health wise anyway at the moment but I hate not working I hate the lack of mental stimulation, having colleagues, feeling "useful"

I hate feeling a burden, being pitied, or indeed being vilified and demonised.

Being constantly told by govt, msm, sm, society in general that you're not only useless but a burden sucks!

I thinknot's fair. I now have five children and I don't get child benefit for all of them. I think this is fair. My husband works hard and I was working before my most recent pregnancy. We are by no means really well off, but we wouldn't expect any more child benefit. It was our choice to have more children. People know the law need to make sure they don't have extra little accidents or whatever. We have decided now not to have any more, and we won't. We were together for 10 years before we had kids and we managed perfectly fine not to get me pregnant in that time. People need to take responsibility and stop being so entitled. Stop having additional kids if you can't provide for them ffs.

@lynsey91 wealthy families with large families don't attract the same level or amount of criticism, nothing near. They can also easily afford to ignore it.

I think you are lost @Spanielstail the 50s are behind us.

Agreed

Apologies for typos, I am multi-tasking...