To think extending the school day is a terrible idea

[footballdisharmony]

Apparently Boris thinks that extending the school day is the 'right thing to do' (as reported in the Guardian today) I think this is an awful idea. I'm interested what others think?

I think keeping them at school longer is a mistake and is unlikely to be properly resourced to really make positive impact. Why not just invest in more more teachers/TAs/targeted help. A longer day just eats further into time with friends and family, and time to do other extra curricula activities that children actually really want to do and get a lot from. My primary DC already have homework, spellings, times tables and reading to do after school - surely they need a bit of time to just relax and play!

The funding for this would be horrendous.

Option 1 - pay the teachers/staff more. Never going to happen, even if staff had it in them to plan, teach and assess more work during the time they currently use to plan lessons.

Option 2 - pay for external providers for every school every afternoon. Ha!!! I can't see that happening!

Option 3 - put forward a plan that on the surface sounds reasonable and that pleases people who need childcare after school, on the flimsiest evidence. Know full well it won't happen because you can't afford it (and don't care anyway) and wait for the teachers and unions to protest, then pin all the blame on lazy Bad Teachers who don't care enough to help your child catch up on the overly stuffed, prescriptive curriculum that isn't even developmentally aligned in primary. Shout loudly "Won't somebody think of the children?!" whilst sniggering in your sleeve at the people who have fallen for this hook, line and sinker.

Btw, I've just turned off my laptop. This is the earliest night I've had this week. We are all on our knees and crawling to the end of term. Kids and staff alike. The last thing any of us need is more hours. Behaviour goes down the drain from 2:15 onwards in our school. If anything is put in place it has to be life skills - cycling, swimming, cooking, library time/reading for pleasure, board games to learn sharing/turntaking/being a good winner as well as a good loser, singing or specialist music teaching. Not academic things. They simply can't sustain that level of mental effort, and the effort of containing inappropriate behaviour for some.

I went to private school in the nineties/noughties.

The school day was roughly 8.30am-4pm in both primary and secondary. If you got the bus you arrived at school at 8.15am and couldn't leave until 5.30pm.

From aged 11 we also had Saturday school from 8.30-12.10pm.

But summer holidays were 9-10 weeks long. We got two weeks in October, a month at Christmas and another month at Easter, plus a week in February and a week in May.

School also opened as normal on bank holidays though the buses ran straight after class on those days.

[quote FrippEnos]**@bookworm20

And to be honest, the UK has a ridiculously short school day compared to most other European countries.

Are you prepared to swap the shorter day for the longer holidays that other European countries have?
Also generally the school day in Europe is 08:30 till between 15:00 and 16:00 so not that different.[/quote]
@FrippEnos

Well we've lived in 3 other european countries and all the schools my dc attended were 9-5 or 8.30 - 4.30. So yes, it is alot longer.

And they had 2 weeks extra summer holidays than the UK, which in my opinion is actually much better.

I've not read the full thing and, as a Scottish teacher and parent, this doesn't impact me but hey ho.

First I'd like to point out that many People reminiscing about their longer day, or comparing state to private, forget to mention the changes to breaks and inclusion of extra curriculars. In (Scottish) state schools we are 9-3 for most primaries, although some finish at lunch on Friday but work until 3.30 for the other four days. Children typically have one hour of breaks (15 minutes in the morning and 45 for lunch) with 5 hours of lessons. In the private schools they seem to have longer breaks and their extended times are given to extra curricular activities, not more maths and literacy. In days gone by there were additional breaks. It's not the same.

Secondly I'd like to say that I'd only agree if these extra hours were completed by specialist teachers. I have no music, art or p.e. qualifications and children deserve to have the best, if that's what the time is used for. I also wouldn't want to attempt more maths or literacy at the end of the day, there is a reason we do these subjects in the morning.

Lastly I'd like to point out that I, along with most of my colleagues, wouldn't be able to do our job if they just stuck extra time on.
At the moment there are very few teachers that can complete there 35 hour a week expectation. It literally gives us 7.5 hours for marking and prep per week where I'd probably spend, at least, that time on marking alone meaning all the prep (daily plan, weekly plan, topic plans, making ppts, differentiating work, reading 3 different novels etc) comes above the 7.5 hours. If I were expected to work for another hour a day I wouldn't be able to complete my marking in school (due to our shutting time) and it knocks on to everything else. I know that conditions in England are much worse and the job would become more or less unmanageable. Unless the expectations were changed, our core terms to our working week etc and a better salary paid accordingly I could see teachers leaving faster than before.

I do agree that this is a way of the government absolving themselves of responsibility for the attainment of children post COVID.

@CoastalWave

When do they get to be kids? Imagine a four year old doing 8-5, poor little sods.

Completely agree but millions of parents shove their kids in nursery from 6months+ childcare from 7am - 7pm and no one has an issue with that! (whole working mum brigade of my kid is being enriched and it's perfectly fine blah blah) There are still so many children who go to link clubs at 7am, then school 9-3 and then straight to the childminders. Not sure it's any different for them is it?

My issue - both my kids are elite in sports. That certainly wouldn't happen in a school based sport environment. They finish school at 3/15 and are out 4 evenings a week 5-9pm doing their 'thing'. How are the schools going to cater for those kids?

I completely agree!

If you go to the extra-curricular board most children do their clubs privately. You can't have the same level at school where you have 30 children do guitar lesson AT THE SAME TIME. You just can't learn competitively like that, you need 1-1 lessons! I know a girl whose parents would pay EXTRA at a private school for individual piano lessons. I don't know any local, LA schools in our borough who bring teachers for 1-1 lessons (minimum 4 children) and they don't even have footstools, metronomes etc and we certainly have no money for private. If you people want child care pay for it! If you do competetive swimming, football, ballet etc you simply can't do it at school. I want my children at home during normal hours (my eldest have their own keys) so they can start to study for their Y10 exams or lie down and unwind.

The government want to extend the school day to make up for children having fallen behind in their maths and english, not other activities as it is urgent and without those skills hyou can't get decent GCSEs and a job even as a teaching assistant! Because people think "oh, it must be so easy being a TA".

I personally want to spend time with my children and I also teach them different subjects at home when I or they have spare time. After school I might take them cycling at the park or we might feed the ducks. Seeing here that so many people want their children at school until 6 which coincidentally is the universal mumsnet bedtime how on earth will people spend any time with their children at all? I am all for people who work long hours to get support so they can earn enough but it's not just those people.

My issue - both my kids are elite in sports. That certainly wouldn't happen in a school based sport environment. They finish school at 3/15 and are out 4 evenings a week 5-9pm doing their 'thing'. How are the schools going to cater for those kids?

The clubs would start later.

Or if the last lesson of the school day was extra sport I expect they'd let you miss it if your kids are in an elite pathway. When dd was at state school her school let her miss PE to train with her coach

@Bryonyshcmyony but she said the clubs finish up to 9pm so if they start later they have to finish later. You can’t really have children finishing clubs after 9pm at night! Especially having done an extra long day at school. They do need time to sleep after all.

[quote Peaplant20]@Bryonyshcmyony but she said the clubs finish up to 9pm so if they start later they have to finish later. You can’t really have children finishing clubs after 9pm at night! Especially having done an extra long day at school. They do need time to sleep after all.[/quote]
Well if all schools adopt it then the clubs will have to adapt.

Opportunism on the part of government. 'Oh, to help the children we're going to extend the school day,' meaning 'This is our best chance to do what governments have wanted to do for years, extend the school day so that it covers most normal working hours.' And do it in a way that teachers have to accept it...
Saves working parents money, as posted above. Places children where governments need them ready for indoctrination - 'citizenship' was the in thing when I was teaching, years ago. All mind-control.

@Blankscreen

There is a huge difference between primary children age 6 or 7 and a 13/14 year old in terms of what they can cope with at school.

DSS went to a state comp and it was dire barely any homework in his GCSE years (the final year of which was cut short by covid). He finished at 2:50. You certainly have to be very self motivated to do anything other than gaming if the school you are at doesn't set you homework

Dh emailed/called the school numerous times about the lack of work they never replied or got back to him.

We tried to set DSS work but it was really hard virtually impossible to motivate him.

He used to come home and go on his sodding X box with all his school friends.

The sport offering was awful

Lots of teenagers need to be made to do something other than gaming./social media. Keep them at school and make them do sport or obligatory homework but they can cope with a later finish than 2:50

I believe they have intervention for subjects in which they are weak during lunch time or even after school. But O-M-G yes, that school did sound dire! I guess you couldn't afford tuition or couldn't choose which subject to pay for?

The reality is that even those pupils that study at private schools end up paying for tuition, even some that attend really good private schools. I have read threads about it. I know parents IRL taking their children out because they couldn't afford the extra for tuition fees. Private schools do offer extra-curricular activities but many of them you have to pay. We knew people who were paying £150 per half term for weekly half hour lessons which might be standard privately but when you already spend so much money you simply can't afford it.

I am not paying much attention to this as it will require a massive amount of funding, even if it's just for enrichment activities, using TA's. I can't see the current Government approving the expenditure unless it involves another dodgy contract for their backers.

@Bryonyshcmyony

My issue - both my kids are elite in sports. That certainly wouldn't happen in a school based sport environment. They finish school at 3/15 and are out 4 evenings a week 5-9pm doing their 'thing'. How are the schools going to cater for those kids?

The clubs would start later.

But they would also need their "elite" specialist coach and equipment or e.g. being taken cross county etc with their own extremely advanced lot.

Whenever our children have attended sports clubs at school (they are NOT "elite" level) they keep doing the same thing every year, or even every term when the club restarts!

The same used to happen when the school would take them swimming. The only children who could swim were the ones whose parents had taken them to paid lessons. The rest would keep on being on shallow water and the same level perpetually. DS2 managed to learn to swim because he is clumsy and did something different from what the instructor told them. But he was never made to advance and every year they would start again with basics and not do anything further than that, it was totally hopeless and he was very demoralised! They had God knows how many children to teach at the same time. DS1 only learnt to swim at his secondary which had a swimming pool but they had to close after Y7 because they couldn't maintain it, guess why? Government cuts! So DS2 never had swimming lessons at secondary. Now they government want teachers to work extra hours too and save even more money!

I don't know. Dd finishes at 5 and is on two elite sports pathways and it's fine. They start later to accommodate those who live miles away or who are at private school, just my experience obviously

Basically, if a child or their parents want to have 1-1 or small class teaching, or to play at an advanced level clubs will need to bring lots more teachers or better expert subject teachers and clubs would charge £xxx per month for small classed like private ones which is unaffordable for many parents. Also, if you are at an advanced level for a sport you'd rather play and compete with children who are at the same level and certainly chances are that they will be spread over many different schools AND boroughs. Children also make friends from other clubs which they attend.

Thinking of some kids I know, they do clubs three times a week and the times they start vary between 5.30PM-5.45PM. They do them outside of school.
There's no way their mum would want them to stop those and I also don't think they would start later either. How are dinner times/bedtimes all meant to fit in?
I also worry for the out of school providers such as childminders, nannies, after school clubs etc. All would go out of business as no need for them.

How ridiculous
They'd just have to change the timings.

@PixieAndProsecco children deserve to have the best. Perhaps so, but they generally don't get it. Teaching has been in crisis for years (as you alluded). People who are outstanding/brilliant at what they do don't usually put up with the pay and condition that come with teaching.

@MiaMarshmallows

Thinking of some kids I know, they do clubs three times a week and the times they start vary between 5.30PM-5.45PM. They do them outside of school. There's no way their mum would want them to stop those and I also don't think they would start later either. How are dinner times/bedtimes all meant to fit in? I also worry for the out of school providers such as childminders, nannies, after school clubs etc. All would go out of business as no need for them.

Those meal times. It depends on what times you already eat. Lunch here is 12 noon. Dinner is 7-8pm, sometimes later. When we're out later, during summer evenings, for example, we eat later.

Awful idea. I was still in school not that long ago and I remember very well how fucking tired I was all the time despite passing out at 8pm, the school bus always being late so I never got home before dark in winter, last lesson of the day always being a write off (even teachers recognised this), the panic of realising you might not get enough sleep for whatever reason to get through the next day, etc etc.

The school day isn’t efficient enough to be extended. So much of it is travel, waiting around for the bell, sitting in registration, break, lunch, “lesson starters” and so on.

[quote Doodlebug71]**@PixieAndProsecco* children deserve to have the best*. Perhaps so, but they generally don't get it. Teaching has been in crisis for years (as you alluded). People who are outstanding/brilliant at what they do don't usually put up with the pay and condition that come with teaching.[/quote]
I agree.
I can teach them what they need to know in maths, literacy, hwb and their various topics.
I can manage some art, music and sport but to make these opportunities worthwhile they need to being in sports coaches, art and music teachers and they need to pay the price.

Teaching pay is based on the number of class contact hours they have , i.e. 192 teaching days in a year. (It is -- please don't argue the toss about this because it has come up time and again on here and this has been proved to be right.) So are those who are in favour of extending the school day also in favour of extending school budgets (paid from tax) so that all teachers in all schools are paid for the extra contact hours these extended days will involve?

I am actually strongly in favour of paying more tax to fund schools (and the NHS, etc.) better. but not necessarily like this.

Oh those pesky capitalist tories up to no good again.

You get what you vote for I suppose.

Who wants young kids eating dinner at 7PM or later though? I can see the government maybe tagging half an hour onto the end of the day but not till 5-6PM. It just isn't workable for many people.

@MiaMarshmallows

Who wants young kids eating dinner at 7PM or later though? I can see the government maybe tagging half an hour onto the end of the day but not till 5-6PM. It just isn't workable for many people.

plenty of children eat at 7pm or later

I know on MN everyone comes home from work mid-afternoon and has time to cook from scratch and have tea at 4:30- 5pm, but back in the real world, it's not that common. People are still working at that time!

Kids are in childcare, in clubs, with friends. 7pm for diner is more than reasonable. Most kids have an afternoon snack, they are far from starving.