So, british mumsnet, how do you feel about statues of Queen Victorian and QEII torn down in Canada?

[Evangeli]

www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-57693683

While we're talking about statues, curious to hear opinions on this. Are you shocked, outraged or just "meh"? I feel this is different from the slaver captain who was torn down last year (in Plymouth?) or the military/politician men who have been toppling across Canada- it feels even more iconoclastic?

Personally I'm anti-monarchist, so it's all good to me, but would like to discuss it. fwiw, I grew up in the UK but immigrated to Canada as an adult.

I’m more outraged at the mass graves of indigenous children going unmarked for so long than I could ever be about any statue.

What about the current genocide of indigenous Canadian girls? That's nothing to do with the British, why did that not warrant more outrage - perhaps because then they'd have to take responsibility for themselves.
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/sep/07/canada-indigenous-women-and-girls-missing

We are the old enemy they had to vanquish in order for their country to be founded, so tearing down statues of the Queen will both function as virtue signalling, as well as dissociate themselves from guilt and feed their egos as an Independent nation, nothing like the evil British.

Erm, the Canadians didn't "vanquish" the British. They achieved independence peacefully and amicably.

Oh bollocks to raising awareness. We already know this - we may not know the specific cases or the specific numbers but we all know that atrocities have been carried out by those in power against those without. For a significant period in recent history those in power = the British empire. But it's not unique or surprising because it it happens in every single society in every point in time, because humans are nasty fucking creatures. WE ALL KNOW AND WE PRETEND WE DON'T SO THAT WE CAN SLEEP AT NIGHT.

Was anyone actually surprised to find this out? Horrified yes, upset yes, but surprised? No of course not. It's like when we hear about another school shooting in the US. Its awful every time but it's not a surprise.

Anyone not aware of this is an idiot.

Raising awareness is like prayer. It makes the person doing it feel virtuous and it makes fuck all difference to anyone else.

Tearing down a statue of their British figurehead doesn't look particularly amicable.

The deaths of those children are beyond horrific. I totally understand why people would want to protest and knock down statues. I don't have a good grip on how indigenous people in Canada are treated now or what kind of racism they experience but it seems like structural change is probably needed. Perhaps the statues being knocked down will initiate some discussion around that and colonialism, empire etc...?
I don't think Brits generally have an attachment to statues of queen victoria (not rtft, but the first page indicates as much)

Meh!

Raising awareness is like prayer. It makes the person doing it feel virtuous and it makes fuck all difference to anyone else.
I agree. Young people haven't been able to let off steam as they normally can the past year and a half, so instead they play politics and tear down statues. How many of them do you think give enough of a fuck to actually do anything that doesn't involve partying and vandalism?

Couldn't give a rats backside. If people don't want statues, then take them down

@mrsborisjohnson

Tearing down a statue of their British figurehead doesn't look particularly amicable.

The Queen is Canada’s head of state too.

Maybe it is time Canada became a proper republic?

Imagine stupid people talking about their country being colonised by the Romans and not hating on Italians. How many years ago was this again?

Oh charming! The British colonised Canada in the 15th century, not recent history either. You can’t have it both ways.

Couldn't give a rats backside. If people don't want statues, then take them down
I doubt they really care either, they've probably passed those statues a thousand times and never given them a second thought. It's all a token gesture with an after party, no real action, doing nothing to improve the lives of indigenous people. Real change has nothing to do with tearing down a statue of an old woman who has no political power in their country anyway.

Good on them.

The Queen is Canada’s head of state too.

Maybe it is time Canada became a proper republic?
I honestly couldn't care less, it makes no difference to me, I'm not even a royalist, I just don't like hypocrisy.

I’m stunned at the lack of outrage about WHY these statues were torn down.

Im as wokey left as the next person, but in the last 16 months my well off compassion, outrage, shock and anger has run dry.

Whilst I can feel empathy for the people still living who experienced the abuse in these schools. And feel anger towards how indigenous women (actually all women) are treated now. As far as feeling outrage, shock, other violent emotions towards children who have been dead for at least 100 years - no, sorry. I don't care.

[quote mrsborisjohnson]What about the current genocide of indigenous Canadian girls? That's nothing to do with the British, why did that not warrant more outrage - perhaps because then they'd have to take responsibility for themselves.
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/sep/07/canada-indigenous-women-and-girls-missing[/quote]
Indeed.

@July2mebabywouldJuly2me

It just seems over dramatic and silly to me. Like they don't care about the dead indigenous children, they just wanted some aggro.

Exactly this. Like most of these thick-as-pudding protesters, they don't give a shit about the actual cause, and in most cases, know fuck-all about it anyway. They're pathetic.

@SirSamuelVimes

Oh bollocks to raising awareness. We already know this - we may not know the specific cases or the specific numbers but we all know that atrocities have been carried out by those in power against those without. For a significant period in recent history those in power = the British empire. But it's not unique or surprising because it it happens in every single society in every point in time, because humans are nasty fucking creatures. WE ALL KNOW AND WE PRETEND WE DON'T SO THAT WE CAN SLEEP AT NIGHT.

Was anyone actually surprised to find this out? Horrified yes, upset yes, but surprised? No of course not. It's like when we hear about another school shooting in the US. Its awful every time but it's not a surprise.

Anyone not aware of this is an idiot.

Raising awareness is like prayer. It makes the person doing it feel virtuous and it makes fuck all difference to anyone else.

Christ there are some seriously thick people. ..so now I’m an idiot for not closely following the news of a country I don’t live in. Believe it or not some of us have busy lives and can’t have our nose in the papers all day. If involving statues raises awareness amongst more casual news browsers, all the better. The petition to have a National day of mourning is one of the most successful on Change.org. How was that achieved? Through awareness of the cause.

We need to keep it in perspective that a hundred years ago the world was a very different place to how it is now.
I’m not speaking in support of these children’s residential homes and in an ideal world they should never have existed.

My great uncle died in a children’s home in the UK. Both of his parents were alive at the time, I suppose they had their reasons for sending their children to this orphanage. Medicine was not great back then and there were no vaccines so children really did die all the time.

The petition to have a National day of mourning is one of the most successful on Change.org. How was that achieved? Through awareness of the cause.

And what does that achieve? Actual, tangible impact, not feelings.

Babies were being thrown in a septic tank in Tuam in the 1960’s. Have they also missed the cut off point for coverage and reaction to the atrocities that were perpetrated?

I think the death of those children is appalling and horrific.

Could someone please explain to me what Queen Elisabeth or Queen Victoria had to do with it? If not, I believe that the anger should be directed at the ones responsible and prevent it from happening again.

The toppling of the statues seems to be petty vandalism, I cannot bring myself to care about it.

@SoMuchForSummerLove

Don't give a shit. I think statues should be chosen as signposts to where we want society to go, not memorials to people who had more than their fair share for no good reason.

I know this is missing the point of the thread a bit but I like this idea. Much rather see a statue of Marcus Rashford than Cecil Rhodes. Though the statue of Eric Morecombe made me smile. As to the statues in Canada, I can understand people being angry and if tearing them down raises awareness around the world, that’s alright in my eyes.

And yes, sorry but you are horrendously ill informed if you aren't aware of the many any various ways that the various European empires instigated a culture of ethnic cleansing against pretty much every indigenous race they ran into. It wasn't a fucking secret - it was government policy. It was celebrated as bringing the savages into civilization and closer to God.

Read a fucking book.

I think it's absolutely right to commemorate atrocities from the past with the aim of honouring the dead, to right a wrong and ensure such atrocities don't occur again. I'm not convinced in any way that's what this is, however.