So, british mumsnet, how do you feel about statues of Queen Victorian and QEII torn down in Canada?

[Evangeli]

www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-57693683

While we're talking about statues, curious to hear opinions on this. Are you shocked, outraged or just "meh"? I feel this is different from the slaver captain who was torn down last year (in Plymouth?) or the military/politician men who have been toppling across Canada- it feels even more iconoclastic?

Personally I'm anti-monarchist, so it's all good to me, but would like to discuss it. fwiw, I grew up in the UK but immigrated to Canada as an adult.

Don’t care about the statues. Furious about all the deaths and how hard those in power have found it to say sorry.

Uncomfortable with the attacks on statues of the current queen. She’s still alive, she’s an old lady who had nothing to do with atrocities, and rightly or wrongly she is the figurehead of our country, and abusing her image is an insult to Britain (as well as being personally upsetting to her children). Not a monachist, I’d much prefer to be a republic, but directing hate at an innocent old lady and at Britain in general, over atrocities that took - and take - place in Canada, makes no sense to me. Canada is still routinely abusive to its indigenous communities especially women and children, I’d prefer to see protests at police stations demanding that minority communities have their rights protected.

Could not give a shit.

Maybe does mean they’ve grown tired of having an overseas monarchy?

I'm continually surprised by how much British people and institutions are able to mentally minimise any awareness of the harm that our history has caused other people, both historically and in present day. It's evident in this thread and another on another forum I read today.

I'm also somewhat taken aback by people who view the toppling of statues in isolation from the bigger picture - but I also realise it's kind of understandable because most of us have zero idea of the full history of the situation - including the recent history. It's not just woke thugs toppling statues on a whim - there have been lengthy, complicated, emotionally exhausting and expensive attempts to repair and make good damage done historically and in present day to indigenous people in Canada. I have to say a lot of it is based on the idea of keeping the status quo comfortable for white people and keeping colonised land, colonised

When I visited there was a statue of Queen Victoria next to a totem pole monument to indigenous people. I, as a Brit who doesn't understand the half of it and understood even less when I visited, could not understand why they had a statue to QV there. I think removing them by fair means or foul is absolutely fair game. These statues represent reverence, respect for, pride and reverence for a person and institution, and are no longer considered appropriate in this day and age.

As for QEII having had a bit of a tough year being a good reason to not dismantle structures that represent, to many, frankly evil acts including genocide and war crimes... If you had half as much respect for the people who whose children were murdered and land stolen ...

@Evangeli I haven't voted as I don't know what your AIBU is? Or what saying YANBU or YABU would mean.

My opinion on the statue being pulled down, is that the people doing it are absolutely pathetic, and they need to get some new hobbies, and they need to get a job.

They are as pathetic as the idiots who pulled down the statues last summer in the UK. Over privileged, spoilt little brats who know naff-all about ANYTHING!

I don’t care about the statues. I’m not completely against the monarchy, however, I don’t see the point in it existing and think it’s bonkers that we admire people purely for being born into certain families. We should judge people for what they do and the ways they contribute to society, not “who” they are.

I completely understand the reasons for why people want the statues gone. The crimes committed against indigenous populations are unforgivable.

Maybe it'll actually get some interest in actually doing something to find people and structures responsible for the deaths of so many indigenous/First Nation people both in the recent past and currently and bring them to justice?

This isn't just something that happened hundreds of years ago.

This isn't just a RC church issue or just a colonial powers issue - there were decisions made to strip them of their cultural identity, their language, their families, everything they had (and let's face it, the system made damn sure they didn't have anything tangible) and it was continued way past what should have been the 'what the fuck are we doing to these people here?' point.

The State happily gave the RC and other churches the right to do this. Not because it was nothing to do with anybody but the RC church, but because they wanted the culture erased and chucking them over to these places and people meant they didn't have to bother their pretty little white heads about it anymore. It was a deliberate choice to subcontract out the genocide, both cultural and physical, of another group and not do a fucking thing to stop it.

I'm not surprised there are some empty churches being burned down and a few lumps of metal being tipped over. Maybe it'll actually be properly dealt with, rather than brushed under the carpet with a 'lessons will be learned' but we're not paying the slightest bit of attention to the women and girls that are disappearing right now.

I doubt it, though.

I'm not a statuesucker so I couldn't give a shiny shit

@Demelza82

I'm not a statuesucker so I couldn't give a shiny shit

What a revolting turn of phrase.

I am actually surprised at people saying they don't care, I would have thought there would be more shock/outrage in Britain! at least going by social media here, there are lots of heated opinions.

I think firstly, most people in the UK don't really know what's going on outside the UK and care even less.

Secondly, it's the football tonight so that'll distract some of the more gammon types

Thirdly, a lot of people do tend to view the royal family as just a set of exciting/scandalous headlines and would be more interested in what dress the Duchess of Cambridge is wearing to open a factory in Birmingham than statues of her grandmother in law and distant relative in law being toppled in a country that they probably have never visited.

I a,, however, mildly cynical about both the usefulness of the royal family and the intelligence of the average Briton. MNetter excluded of course.

How comes we don’t tear down everything that was built with slaves or from the profits of others misery/exploitation? Because there won’t be much history left.
People forget what us lovely humans have done in the last few hundred/thousand years.

I’m stunned at the lack of outrage about WHY these statues were torn down.

I think almost all expressions of anger (short of violence to people and private homes) at the residential school revelations are justified. It’s disgusting. And very recent.

As a British person who lives in Britain with ancestors that remained in Britain, am I supposed to feel more ashamed than people who don't live in Britain who have ancestors that left and and inflicted atrocities on other people? I can do that if I'm supposed to, but it didn't really occur to me until now that somehow I'm to blame for the actions of others in the past.

Honestly tho I didn't know about the poor children and adults that lost their lives, it's shocking. But from what I've read on this thread the Catholic church seems to be to blame, and Henry the 8th distanced our monarchy from that group, perhaps you could write a strongly worded letter to the pope?

@RealhousewifeofStoke

I’m stunned at the lack of outrage about WHY these statues were torn down.

Several of us have posted about how awful it is, but for some reason OP chose to make the statues the focus of her thread, so posters are answering her question.

Maybe she thought we are literally a whole country of frothing monarchist statue-worshippers and wanted a bun fight?

Confusing emphasis, I agree.

The statues are a sideshow. An expression of righteous anger run- amok.

[quote FlaminEckVera]@Evangeli I haven't voted as I don't know what your AIBU is? Or what saying YANBU or YABU would mean.

My opinion on the statue being pulled down, is that the people doing it are absolutely pathetic, and they need to get some new hobbies, and they need to get a job.

They are as pathetic as the idiots who pulled down the statues last summer in the UK. Over privileged, spoilt little brats who know naff-all about ANYTHING![/quote]
You really need to read up on why First Nation people are so justifiably angry right now! Their children were stolen from them and died in their hundreds!!! It’s sickening. And it was 100% sanctioned and encouraged by the authorities.

@July2mebabywouldJuly2me

It just seems over dramatic and silly to me. Like they don't care about the dead indigenous children, they just wanted some aggro.

Yup.

What positive impact has this action engendered?

I'm guessing none.

Canadians who are angry (rightly) about the treatment of indigenous people need to do something that helps indigenous people, not direct their anger at inanimate objects. Lobby government, donate to charities, form charities, crowdfund for legal cases.

But none of that gives you the adrenaline rush of smashing shit up in a righteous rage. It's not the work of one night. It's a hard slog and it's what grown ups do. It's how change is made. The people at the top aren't going to give a shit what the plebs on the street are scrapping about.

I don't really care about the statues.

I do care about the indigenous children.

I do care that indigenous women and children, in Canada, are sti going missing t in fary large numbers and the Canadian Governement is t doing doing much.

Whilst I get people's anger directed at the Royal family. I find this quite convenient for the Canadian Governement. Its takes the focus off the fact that aren't doing much to prevent more women and children going missing.

Imagine stupid people talking about their country being colonised by the Romans and not hating on Italians. How many years ago was this again?

Ffs some of these children are still alive today. Grew up and get your head out of your arse. The world does not remove around you.

Some people on mn can be really idiotic and insular.

I don't know a whole load about this, but I have been appalled when I heard what happened to these children.

I didn't give much thought when the statues were pulled down about for a passing 'Not sure what it's got to do with the Queen'.

Did the instruction to remove these children from their home and treat them horrifically, and murdering them, come directly from the UK?

Would this have happened if Canada had been a Republic at the time?

Were the Royal family / UK government in cahoots with the RC Church?

I think it's a way to assuage guilt for Canadians. 'Look, we didn't do it, it was the British!' Meanwhile avoiding the fact that they are mostly descendants of the British. Perhaps the best thing white Canadians could do, therefore, is to pack up their bags and move out of the lands their ancestors stole - except that would be a REAL gesture, and so instead they tear down a statue of a woman who's still working for her country in her 90s and whose husband has just died. Nice. You get a similar kind of cognitive dissonance from white Americans, blaming the British for all the world's crimes. OK, you claim to be 'British' when it suits you because you're so obsessed with your heritage, therefore why don't you go back to where you came from. I remember a white American once telling me the British have no place being in Northern Ireland - erm, what about him being in North America?!

What positive impact has this action engendered?

One could argue it's generated even more global awareness of the underlying cause - the atrocities of the past. It's brought those to even more people's attention which has allowed conversations about what happened to begin or to continue. It's raised awareness.

I think it's a way to assuage guilt for Canadians. 'Look, we didn't do it, it was the British!'

Exactly. And it's forgetting the fact that it's still happening today, with little being done.

Is that the Queens fault too?

North Americans have always been obsessed with the idea that the British are so much smarter than them, but also evil masterminds. See in 80s Hollywood movie villains for this trope. We are the old enemy they had to vanquish in order for their country to be founded, so tearing down statues of the Queen will both function as virtue signalling, as well as dissociate themselves from guilt and feed their egos as an Independent nation, nothing like the evil British.

@youvegottenminuteslynn

What positive impact has this action engendered?

One could argue it's generated even more global awareness of the underlying cause - the atrocities of the past. It's brought those to even more people's attention which has allowed conversations about what happened to begin or to continue. It's raised awareness.

Yes, I’d not heard of this until yesterday. It’s important in its own right that the world is aware of these atrocities as without awareness how can we push for fair treatment for indigenous people.