So, british mumsnet, how do you feel about statues of Queen Victorian and QEII torn down in Canada?

[Evangeli]

www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-57693683

While we're talking about statues, curious to hear opinions on this. Are you shocked, outraged or just "meh"? I feel this is different from the slaver captain who was torn down last year (in Plymouth?) or the military/politician men who have been toppling across Canada- it feels even more iconoclastic?

Personally I'm anti-monarchist, so it's all good to me, but would like to discuss it. fwiw, I grew up in the UK but immigrated to Canada as an adult.

Simply don’t care. Canada is in any event is pretty much irrelevant to my day to day existence, never been there and have no particular desire too. South or Central America much more interesting

I follow many indigenous people on Twitter and I can see why. They're grieving.

It’s nice that the Canadians seem on the whole to be supporting their indigenous people in these protests.

Ever since I was a child and found about the British empire I have wondered why we insist on being proud of our history. I’m so glad indigenous people, who are still suffering from its effects, are calling colonialism out for the evil thing it was.

Don’t particularly care, they’re statues. If Canada wants to leave the commonwealth, they should hold a referendum and let them go. I think the commonwealth (and indeed monarchy) should disappear all together really.

I'd prefer efforts to go in improving the here and now, not making pointless gestures against the wrong people.

One of the most sensible comments on this thread.

I think pulling down statues is a violent, aggressive, destructive act and, while it’s understandable people feel angry and disgusted, this feels like a showboaty way to show it.

How about some thoughtful and meaningful representation of victims? That would be harder and less attention grabbing but it would mean more.

I agree with @DeRigueurMortis that historic statues should be retained with context and additional statues/information to balance them.

I think its a powerful thing to do. I never think about canada and its brought the whole issue to my attention. I hope its backed up with real support for indigenous people.

@LoveFall

As a Canadian who had nothing to do with tearing down statues, I think it is fair to say that Canada's history is far more complex than all of this makes it sound.

As an example, our first Prime Minister, John A. McDonald was born in Glasgow, Scotland. Canada was not a confederation until 1867. Many of the men involved in confederation were UK born.

A good number of my ancestors were United Empire Loyalists, who left the US during the War of Independence because they were loyal to the Crown. Another good number came from Scotland.

Canada was not created out of thin air and populated by white anglophones. We have three founding groups. French, English, and aboriginal. The relationships were complex to say the least.

I find it difficult to be a Canadian at times because we are facing up to our history in ways many other countries are not. That is partly why you hear so much. It is also why the Canadian population today is feeling so much horror, guilt, and responsibility, even though we had nothing to do with setting up and running the schools.

It is why we are putting so much into reconciliation. We had a years long process of compensation for residential school survivors already, and the Royal Commission recommended the cemetery areas be studied. It is not a surprise that many children died of things like TB, childhood diseases, malnutrition etc. The churches who ran the schools were not the benevolent groups that were perhaps expected.

We are told we indirectly benefitted. I find it hard to see how, unless you sat that "white privilege" flows. I lived in a community with many indigenous people as a teen, and went to high school with kids from the residential school who came to my school for advanced subjects like sciences at higher grades. This was in the 1970s. We learned side by side.

I am not in any way saying that the residential school system was anything but a horror and huge mistake. So was letting the churches run them. But they had similar in the US and we do not hear anything really. I don't know about other countries with indigenous populations but it seems likely similar bad things happened.

There do much wrong with the last part of your paragraph. If you can't see it, you are still part of tge problem

The context here is a genocide performed on indigenous people over a prolonged period, which involves the state and many churches. Of course there is anger, and these statues have felt the brunt of it. I have seen very little by the way of acknowledgement and apologies from either as yet.

I care about what happened to those poor children and their families but couldn't give a shit about the statues.

Statues are inanimate objects have no right to exist and only serve whatever purpose we want them to. If people don't want them, then they can be removed. It's not like someone went back in time to shoot Queen Victoria.

I think it’s an insulting way to treat a 95 year old woman who has just lost her husband, and who has never “oppressed” any Canadians. The queen has been an excellent figurehead for the Commonwealth.
It is childish virtue signalling, attention seeking, and in very poor taste. Such behaviour belongs to toddlers.

I cant get very het up about it but I do think it’s kind of ironic given that the residential schools were run by the Catholic Church and one thing the British Monarchy very definitely isn’t is Catholic. So I do think the people who tore them down probably don’t actually have much grasp of history so much as wanted to be symbolically destructive IMO they chose the wrong symbol

Can't abide mob rule, it's a slippery slope, if they wanted them down; there's plenty of ways to go about it legally.

@Weebleweeble

, and don’t actually give a damn about First Nations women who are locked up in prisons with men, or who are treated like shit by their employers, or who have had their land taken away from them by the government in order to drill for oil…

Or the many who disappear....

Indeed!

It didn’t interest me enough to read beyond the headline, it is just a statute.

Don't give a shit.

It's the, mostly young, wokes who will have to live with the world they are creating where on the strength of some online 'truth' statues are toppled, people are banned and hated - only their view is acceptable - good luck with that - glad to step away.

No I don't care. I do worry about the preservation of important historical works of art and history - these were just two bog standard chunks of metal.

I am surprised that Canada, Australia, India et al are still in the Commonwealth to be honest. I am absolutely horrified at the news coming out of Canada about what went on in those schools.

I cannot say I feel any sense of pride in the exploits of the British during the days of Empire, but neither do I feel any sense of personal guilt. It all happened long before my time.

I don't think many people in the UK are going to get too worked up about this. the Royal Family are a bit of a living soap opera these days. the gossip sells newspapers but although I think they are an important part of history I feel no sense of obligation to defend them.

[quote Evangeli]@HmmmmmmInteresting fair point! I think I used "shocked" and "outraged" for opposing viewpoints, but of course I have my own biases.

I am actually surprised at people saying they don't care, I would have thought there would be more shock/outrage in Britain! at least going by social media here, there are lots of heated opinions.[/quote]
Canada is a bit remote for people in Britain to know or care what's going on.

@NiceGerbil

'It’s more about self-righteousness than anything else.'

Not about the discovery of a raft of mass graves full of children's bodies?

Well if you say so.

Not sure what pulling down an unrelated statue achieves. Doesn't it just act as a distraction so that those who were responsible get away with it?

@Evangeli ‘Given the so many strong opinions on Di and MM and Kate and that lot, I thought there would be more fervour one way or the other.’

In my experience these are generally only expressed in the media/ on social media. I don’t know people having real life conversations, beyond a passing comment on the news. I’d say most people I know in real life are pretty ambivalent about the royals, neither wanting to get rid nor do they feel deferential. I’ve met the Queen through work and tbh most people were politely bored, though not rude or dismissive in anyway.

I don’t think people here have any urge to control Canada either, have the statues or don’t- they belong to Canada and they have free choice on the matter. There’s no real human harm or suffering on the outcome. However people are posting about the schools because it’s a shocking level of human Jake in recent history, it makes you think of your own child or family and how other people’s families have seen such recent harm. It makes you aware of current suffering and want to somehow fix it or do better for those living the repercussions of the actions, it makes you look at the world around you and reassess it and your place in it- and that’s very unsettling and plays on people’s minds.

I considered crying over it but decided to move on... honestly why would I care?

@Lessthanaballpark

It’s nice that the Canadians seem on the whole to be supporting their indigenous people in these protests.

Ever since I was a child and found about the British empire I have wondered why we insist on being proud of our history. I’m so glad indigenous people, who are still suffering from its effects, are calling colonialism out for the evil thing it was.

You know we’ve been colonised too?! The Roman Empire colonised us, but we don’t hold it against the Italians. It’s just the way the world was back then and brits were far from being the only ones. Are we forgetting the French also colonised Canada?

We can be proud of our history without believing men back then did everything right.

I'd rather people take their rightfull anger out on inanimate objects rather than each other. But a better place would be to hold politicians and companies to account in terms of what they can do to fight climate change.