So, british mumsnet, how do you feel about statues of Queen Victorian and QEII torn down in Canada?

[Evangeli]

www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-57693683

While we're talking about statues, curious to hear opinions on this. Are you shocked, outraged or just "meh"? I feel this is different from the slaver captain who was torn down last year (in Plymouth?) or the military/politician men who have been toppling across Canada- it feels even more iconoclastic?

Personally I'm anti-monarchist, so it's all good to me, but would like to discuss it. fwiw, I grew up in the UK but immigrated to Canada as an adult.

@Evangeli

It's bitter in a way that people are saying stuff like "why its so important to concentrate on whose fault this was 100 hundred years ago, but ignore that's it still happening now."

It's all linked. History -not so distant history especially- is directly influencing how the present is shaped. People can think / act about the historical structures while also wanting change now. It's not an either/or situation. There are many people working for and calling for reform right now, trying to change the way Indigenous children in foster care for example are treated. As others said above, it is possible to be aware of do more than one thing at the same time.

As for understanding how the British Empire directly was responsible for the treatment of Indigenous people by white anglophone Canadians, as someone else politely said upthread, read a fucking book.

That's not what has been said at all. I said the opposite.

Its extremely important to acknowledge British colonisation and its impacts. And how it it will have contributed, in particular, to these atrocities.

No one said it should be forgotten. However, it was under a Canadian Governement. So, it may have been influenced by the British, but it was a Candian atrocity.

And putting the sole focus on what happened 120 years ago, while effectively ignoring that it's still happening today seems hypocritical. And it appears that its well timed.

The Canadian governent are being called upon to stop what still happening to indigenous people. And it feel likes someone has gone 'ah yes but the British did X 120 years ago.....that's way worse lets direct our anger that way'

Its been a 150 years that Canada has been looking after itself. At some point Canada, its people and it governement have to take responsibility for what is happening now.

In another 120 years will Canadian stoll be blaming British people for what's happening right now.

People have been calling for reform for years. How many indigenous women and children have gone missing in that time?

Yes, blame 'the British' if that's what you want. Hate the 2 Queens. No one here is bothered. But also take responsibility for what your country is doing.

As an Irish person, living in England, I hate what was done in the past. But I don't would rather focus on awful things are happening now, while we have a chance of changing it.

That's doesn't mean forgetting history.

@PoleToPole

The Governor General represents Her Majesty The Queen at the federal level in Canada.

www.canada.ca/en/canadian-heritage/services/crown-canada/governor-general.html

The Governor General is appointed by the Queen, and acts on her behalf. Thus, the crown, and the Queen are still very much tied into Canadian Governance.

So according to that link, your prime minister selects them and the the Queen performs a traditional ceremony?!

I have no objection to Canada rejecting the monarchy, lots of people here do too. But to try and blame the Queen for this is a real stretch.

Couldn't care less about the statues, but I'd listen to the reasons behind the action.
I want rid of the monarchy altogether.

@Babdoc

I think it’s an insulting way to treat a 95 year old woman who has just lost her husband, and who has never “oppressed” any Canadians. The queen has been an excellent figurehead for the Commonwealth. It is childish virtue signalling, attention seeking, and in very poor taste. Such behaviour belongs to toddlers.

why should people care about a 95 year old woman who has just lost her husband? why shouldn't they care about parents whose children where taken away and neglected to the point of death? the queen is a big part of the problem, everything bad done in the empire was to her family's glorification. I'm glad there is attention seeking going on. I'm glad that people are virtue signalling, or caring about others, as I call it.

why should people care about a 95 year old woman who has just lost her husband? why shouldn't they care about parents whose children where taken away and neglected to the point of death? the queen is a big part of the problem, everything bad done in the empire was to her family's glorification. I'm glad there is attention seeking going on. I'm glad that people are virtue signalling, or caring about others, as I call it

Except this didn’t happen under the British Empire, it happened under a Canadian Government.

I think this is the issue with young countries. All their ‘bad history’ can be blamed, rightfully, on other countries, colonisation etc. However, eventually history catches up, and atrocities start to happen after independence and suddenly they’re faced with having to take some responsibility, something they aren’t used to. They don’t want to hold their hands up and say ‘we did something wrong’ because that would make them just as bad as all those evil countries from history.

The British Empire did some fucking awful things, as did many other empires at the time. But Europeans have learnt from their past (to a degree), we’re well versed in holding up our hands to the atrocities of our ancestors. But to ask us to take accountability for things that happened in other, independent countries is ridiculous.

The fact is, people, men especially frankly, from all countries, all cultures, do fucking awful things given the chance. It’s human nature and naive to think otherwise. All you can do is learn from it and improve things in the now,. I hope all this will actually lead to changes for indigenous women and children alive today in Canada.

Can't wait til we start doing that here too.

Canada is in North America, Andylion, as I stated. Canadians may not have fought for freedom from the British, but there clearly exists this same mentality of blaming everything on the British without taking responsibility for their own government's actions.

Naunet 👏

Well said, Naunet . Incidentally, I have a Native American acquaintance who is very active in her community and she thinks defacing statues is meaningless, just a pointless gesture. Of course she can't be taken to speak for everyone in her community, but it makes you wonder who this is done for.

@KenAdams

I'm more worried about the masses of dead indigenous children tbh.

This.

Totally agree @Naunet.

I very much care about the masses of dead babies and children.

Knocked over lump of metal? Not so much.

I am shocked and appalled by the graves and totally understand the need to express distress and anger. I'd rather statues be defaced than people being hurt.

@Naunet

why should people care about a 95 year old woman who has just lost her husband? why shouldn't they care about parents whose children where taken away and neglected to the point of death? the queen is a big part of the problem, everything bad done in the empire was to her family's glorification. I'm glad there is attention seeking going on. I'm glad that people are virtue signalling, or caring about others, as I call it

Except this didn’t happen under the British Empire, it happened under a Canadian Government.

I think this is the issue with young countries. All their ‘bad history’ can be blamed, rightfully, on other countries, colonisation etc. However, eventually history catches up, and atrocities start to happen after independence and suddenly they’re faced with having to take some responsibility, something they aren’t used to. They don’t want to hold their hands up and say ‘we did something wrong’ because that would make them just as bad as all those evil countries from history.

The British Empire did some fucking awful things, as did many other empires at the time. But Europeans have learnt from their past (to a degree), we’re well versed in holding up our hands to the atrocities of our ancestors. But to ask us to take accountability for things that happened in other, independent countries is ridiculous.

The fact is, people, men especially frankly, from all countries, all cultures, do fucking awful things given the chance. It’s human nature and naive to think otherwise. All you can do is learn from it and improve things in the now,. I hope all this will actually lead to changes for indigenous women and children alive today in Canada.

Excellent post Naunet.

I am sick to the back teeth of the ENGLISH always being painted as the bad guy. Now - AND in the past, when we are no worse than many other nations, (and weren't in the past either...)

The English bashers seem to always disregard/ignore the fact that MANY other nations enslaved people, and colonised places across the globe. And in fact, many other nations and cultures do now.

In other continents (outside Europe,) some people keep their OWN PEOPLE as slaves and servants. And as you say, some cultures treat their women - and children - abhorrently.

Doesn't suit the WOKE to acknowledge this though, and when its mentioned, they try and shut you down with 'pipe down you racist gammon, go read your daily mail, and go shag your flag.'

It's so tedious trying to engage with these planks that I just don't do it anymore.

And as you said, blaming us for what happened in other countries, is just desperation now. Are some people THAT desperate to discredit us? It's fucking pathetic.

What sickens me, is when people slate the English, and they are English themselves. Repugnant behaviour.

@LibrariesGiveUsPower45321

I very much care about the masses of dead babies and children.

Knocked over lump of metal? Not so much.

Why do you care? They were dead before you were born. What’s done is done. All we can do is learn from history and not support a regime that makes it likely to happen again.

It’s like all the BLM demonstrations last year focussing on historic slavery. I wonder how many taking part were wearing clothes made in sweat shops by child labour?

@Blossomtoes ^ Also a great post!

@mrsborisjohnson

Canada is in North America, Andylion, as I stated. Canadians may not have fought for freedom from the British, but there clearly exists this same mentality of blaming everything on the British without taking responsibility for their own government's actions.

As I was born and raised in Canada, and, in fact, live here, I know exactly where it is located, thanks very much.

I do not blame the British or the Queen for these atrocities.

Persoanlly I just thought it was stupid to do it so uncontrolled and someone could have got badly injured. I was glad there were no casualties.

Canadians damage Canadian property in protest over recent and historical Canadian atrocity.

Not sure why British folk should be upset ? Surely anyone who isn't a sociopath would be upset at the Canadians who committed the atrocity ?

Not arsed

I agree that maybe the reason behind the "meh" is that people feel so far removed from what they consider purely Canadian issues- and I would say that's a problem with the education - maybe with better historical education in the UK, people could better appreciate the global extent of the atrocities?

I think you are misunderstanding and being rather patronising. People aren't saying they don't care about what happened. They are saying thay they don't object to statues being pulled down. Either because they don't think statues are very important, because they aren't monarchists or because they consider it Canada's decision as to what they do with their statues. I'm pretty well-educated, thanks. I'm also a republican and believe that Canadian people should make decisions about their own statues.

This is not some long ago historic event. Once more, the atrocities against the children were carried out into the 1990's. Pole to Pole's posts have outlined what went on
It's contemporary with Ireland, the Magdalen Laundries and the Tuam and other babies yet to be discovered.
Info en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Indian_residential_school_system

Churches ran all of the institutions in both of those countries and who knows where else in the world.

from Google "Nearly three-quarters of the 130 residential schools [in Canada] were run by Roman Catholic missionary congregations, with others operated by the Presbyterian, Anglican and the United Church of Canada, which today is the largest Protestant denomination in the country"

It's impossible to believe that the cruelty and barbaric treatment of the children in Canada by varied groups of Christianity and children and adults in Ireland carried out by Catholic priests and nuns was not known about and sanctioned at the highest levels of their respective organisations.

Despite the apologies already made, it's not enough and much, much more needs to be done. If tearing down statues puts this issue on the world's front pages, then so be it. Personally I don't think that's the best way to achieve publicity, but in the absence of any better ideas, I don't object.

Could someone who knows please explain what "atrocities" against children took place in the 1990s. While it is true that the last school did not close until 1996 and the students were relocated, despite my reading the entire Truth and Reconciliation report I have not heard of any of the horrible things mentioned here taking place anywhere near the 1990s.

Please provide a source where I can read about it.

@LoveFall
I suppose it depends what you mean by 'anywhere near the 90s' but children were being sexually and physically abused en masse at the Gordon Indian Residential School at least into the mid 80s. Plenty of sources available on the abuse at that school (which was the last federally operated one to be closed) if you google.

Wasn't QEII..