So, british mumsnet, how do you feel about statues of Queen Victorian and QEII torn down in Canada?

[Evangeli]

www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-57693683

While we're talking about statues, curious to hear opinions on this. Are you shocked, outraged or just "meh"? I feel this is different from the slaver captain who was torn down last year (in Plymouth?) or the military/politician men who have been toppling across Canada- it feels even more iconoclastic?

Personally I'm anti-monarchist, so it's all good to me, but would like to discuss it. fwiw, I grew up in the UK but immigrated to Canada as an adult.

It's bitter in a way that people are saying stuff like "why its so important to concentrate on whose fault this was 100 hundred years ago, but ignore that's it still happening now."

It's all linked. History -not so distant history especially- is directly influencing how the present is shaped. People can think / act about the historical structures while also wanting change now. It's not an either/or situation. There are many people working for and calling for reform right now, trying to change the way Indigenous children in foster care for example are treated. As others said above, it is possible to be aware of do more than one thing at the same time.

As for understanding how the British Empire directly was responsible for the treatment of Indigenous people by white anglophone Canadians, as someone else politely said upthread, read a fucking book.

"people in canada don’t know about the statues..."

Oh we know.

It is up to Canadians both what they do with their statues, how they want to interpret their history and what political decisions they want to make moving forward.
The same as any other independent country.

Historically the UK and Canada were very closely entwined however it is entirely up to Canada what they want to do in the future.

The ideas of white Christian superiority were firmly entrenched in many colonial powers including the UK. They are not currently accepted views.

The UK was not structurally involved with the Catholic Church however so that influence may have come from elsewhere?

I'm glad Canadians are addressing their past, it would be great if they could address their current treatment of indigenous women as well.

I had a brief look into this episode expecting to see (rightfully pissed off) indigenous people feature large among the topplers, but alas, mostly student types.

The whole thing is reminiscent of the Cultural Revolution in China and the Red Guard with their denouncements of anything perceived as counter to the current “wisdom” except the ones now are whiter, plumper and probably more spoilt. Similarly, the Russian Revolutions, isis and our own reformation left much cultural heritage in ruins. Ancient Buddhist monasteries in western China destroyed along with a wealth of information that people now have little idea about, and spend years trying to piece together - all destroyed because self righteous pricks have a distorted notion of truth.

Same thing.

Harry got kicked out of there for political reasons and his relationship to the Queen

I think you’ll find he was kicked out because the Canadian government wasn’t prepared to foot his security bill.

@mrsborisjohnson

North Americans have always been obsessed with the idea that the British are so much smarter than them, but also evil masterminds. See in 80s Hollywood movie villains for this trope. We are the old enemy they had to vanquish in order for their country to be founded, so tearing down statues of the Queen will both function as virtue signalling, as well as dissociate themselves from guilt and feed their egos as an Independent nation, nothing like the evil British.

This is happening in Canada. Nothing to do with Americans.

I agree with the posters who say tearing down statues of the two Queens distracts from the real people responsible, the Canadian government. The RC seems to get all the blame but they acted with the permission of the government.

There is also a lot to say about the complete lack of safe drinking water in indigenous communities currently. The Queen and the RC church are not responsible for that.

Oh charming! The British colonised Canada in the 15th century, not recent history either. You can’t have it both ways.

Um, your dates are off there.

@Andylion

Oh charming! The British colonised Canada in the 15th century, not recent history either. You can’t have it both ways.

Um, your dates are off there.

They’re not, it’s when it first started, although to be fair, it’s not when it ended. Google British colonisation of Canada in 15th century:

From the late 15th century, French and British expeditions explored, colonized, and fought over various places within North America in what constitutes present-day Canada. The colony of New France was claimed in 1534 with permanent settlements beginning in 1608

As a republican I'm quite happy

Op, what do you want us UK based Brits to say?

This is actually a bizarre thing though. And language like "mass graves" is part of the issue. These are graveyards, with coffins, used over years. A few are marked but most are not. But not what most people picture when you say "mass graves."

There is almost no new information involves. We knew about these graveyards, we have known for many years. We knew many children died in residential schools. Mostly from tb and other childhood diseases

Not just dying of TB, Polio etc in residential schools but at home too.

Many children in the UK also died of disease, especially those living in overcrowded poor conditions, where most people lived until relatively recently.

I'm not sure people understand what "unmarked grave" means. Its simply a grave without a marker/headstone and again many people and children were buried in them, cemeteries are full of unmarked graves

An elderly relative of mine in England, long deceased but who I knew when I was a child, had 5 siblings that all died of disease/probably malnourished. They all died young and were buried in unmarked graves. Thousands upon thousands of children in the same city probably were at around the same time too

@Andylion

Oh charming! The British colonised Canada in the 15th century, not recent history either. You can’t have it both ways.

Um, your dates are off there.

It’s a stretch but perhaps they were referring to John Cabot about 1497. France claimed it in 1534

While we're talking about statues, curious to hear opinions on this. Are you shocked, outraged or just "meh"?
Meh. Hth.

As far as feeling outrage, shock, other violent emotions towards children who have been dead for at least 100 years - no, sorry. I don't care.

This wasn`t just happening a hundred years ago, it was happening as late as 1998. There are residential school survivors in their thirties.

As for the anger at QE2, all bills which pass the Canadian Senate still need Royal Assent before they can come into force, the Crown, and thus the Queen, are still tied into Canadian governance and legislature.

Never understood statues really.

Zero fucks given.

Wrongs were done.

That needs to be recognised, though at the same time I refuse to feel guilty for things I did not do, I still think its important to recognise those things happened, they should not have, and there are wrongs that still need to be righted, and wrongs that probably never can be.

I'm not sure people understand what "unmarked grave" means. Its simply a grave without a marker/headstone and again many people and children were buried in them, cemeteries are full of unmarked graves

An elderly relative of mine in England, long deceased but who I knew when I was a child, had 5 siblings that all died of disease/probably malnourished. They all died young and were buried in unmarked graves. Thousands upon thousands of children in the same city probably were at around the same time too

Many of the childrens` bodies were dumped in shallow graves less than a metre deep straight out of a wheelbarrow. No coffins, no respect, no dignity. Other children were made to watch, some even had to dig the graves, my MIL was one of them. Some of my inlaws too.
Residential school survivors have seen children thrown to their deaths off balconys, die from their injuries after torture, rape and beatings, die in childbirth after forced pregnancies resulting from rape, have the babies from those rapes murdered, commit suicide, die from starvation, die from lack of medical treatment...the list goes on and on.

This was not about kids dying from common historic childhood diseases or conditions, this is not about graves without headstones. And again, this is not just a historic issue, this was going on in the 1990s.

And again, this is not just a historic issue, this was going on in the 1990s.

That’s bloody awful. But if it was happening so recently it makes removing statues of British monarchs even more unreasonable.

@PoleToPole

As far as feeling outrage, shock, other violent emotions towards children who have been dead for at least 100 years - no, sorry. I don't care.

This wasn`t just happening a hundred years ago, it was happening as late as 1998. There are residential school survivors in their thirties.

As for the anger at QE2, all bills which pass the Canadian Senate still need Royal Assent before they can come into force, the Crown, and thus the Queen, are still tied into Canadian governance and legislature.

Royal Assist:

Royal Assent is the approval by the Sovereign of a bill that has passed both houses of Parliament in identical form. It is the process by which a bill becomes an act of Parliament and part of the law of Canada. In Canada, Royal Assent is given by the Governor General or one of the Governor General’s deputies (a Justice of the Supreme Court of Canada or a senior official such as the Secretary to the Governor General).

The legislative process requires the participation and approval of the three components of Parliament: the Sovereign, the Senate and the House of Commons. Royal Assent and the accompanying ceremony, where all three institutions are involved, are the visible manifestation of the Sovereign sanctioning the work of Parliament.

*Royal Assent

I really can't get worked up about it at all. Hope that helps.

I was mouthing 'meh' as I clicked on the thread. They're just statues. Though I dislike vandalism that wastes public money such as bus shelters being destroyed so I'm a bit hypocritical. Long term we need to address our colonial past as a nation. Perhaps have corrections added to and explanatory sign or engraving on the plinth

The Governor General represents Her Majesty The Queen at the federal level in Canada.

www.canada.ca/en/canadian-heritage/services/crown-canada/governor-general.html

The Governor General is appointed by the Queen, and acts on her behalf. Thus, the crown, and the Queen are still very much tied into Canadian Governance.

I don't think the vandalism of works of art is appropriate on this occasion, no.

I see the hand of the Catholic church yet again