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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

AIBU not to clean the house at the end of a tenancy

86 replies

Notthatkeen · 01/07/2021 15:24

I have served my landlord notice to leave and they have given me a checklist of issues which are either (a) fair and I accept I need to pay for them (b) outrageous or (c) unfair but I know it is likely they will get away with it.

I won't go into full details because they are outing but when I moved in I stupidly didn't take my own photos and the landlord said they would share theirs but never did and I forgot to follow up (please don't judge me there were extreme reasons as to why I moved in in such a rush, head wasn't in the right place). Now the photos they have given me in support of their 'checklist issues' the condition of certain items, walls, carpets etc look very good and much better then when I moved in but I can't prove it.

I know I am foolish for not taking my own photos (lesson learnt). I know I can challenge and probably win on some points but all of my dealings with my landlord have been exhausting and I think they will get away with the unfair (but not outrageous) stuff.

On to my AIBU... I know I have to clean at the end of a tenancy and have sought quotes from professional cleaners. The cost of the landlord's preferred cleaner is around half my deposit. The value of the fair issues raised by my landlord also amount to around half the deposit. So say the the deposit is £1,000 and the cleaners are £500.

If I pay cleaners and lose my full deposit (unfairly but I can't prove it) to the landlord the cost to me is £1,500. If I do I not pay for cleaning the landlord will take it out of my deposit so my cost is limited to £1,000.

AIBU to even be considering doing this? I realise it makes me sound like a terrible person but I hate the thought of my landlord getting away with this.

Vote yes for you are being unreasonable and should organise and pay for cleaning

Vote no for let the landlord take it out of your deposit

So as not to drip feed I don't have any issues needing a reference so that isn't a concern. I can prove that the cleaning company is the one the landlord uses so am not at risk of them using a more expensive one. Also, I don't think my landlord would try to pursue me the courts for what they allege I owe that won't be covered by the deposit as while I think they are prepared to be unscrupulous in retaining a deposit I doubt they would take their fibs to court - it is a risk though.

OP posts:

Palavah · 01/07/2021 15:27

If they didn't provide a check in inventory how can they assert the condition of the property? If you haven't left yet how can they have provided you with a list of issues already?

FFSFFSFFS · 01/07/2021 15:30

Are the photos dated? If you take them to the deposit protection scheme they have to provide credible evidence

Theunamedcat · 01/07/2021 15:34

@FFSFFSFFS

Are the photos dated? If you take them to the deposit protection scheme they have to provide credible evidence

This ^^ challenge him

3JsMa · 01/07/2021 15:35

It's a tough one and I feel your pain.
Any chance you can dispute that the photos provided by LL are not accurate ?(Is there a date on them?)
Do you have any witness that was with you when you were moving in so that they will be able to confirm the condition of the rental?
Having a pictures is great evidence but I totally understand .I had to move with 3 days notice so it was a sheer panic to pack and leave the property in reasonable condition but LL still tried his best to make some money afterwards.One thing I forgot to do was taking a pictures but had an evidence from previous inspection when he was really impressed with how the property is looked after.He shot himself in a foot

Ohsugarhoneyicetea · 01/07/2021 15:35

I wouldnt give up so easy! Take them to the deposit protection scheme if they dont give it back, it definitely favours the renter in my experience. They will have to prove you did not leave it as you found it, they cant just say it. Dont pay for cleaners, do it yourself, do a great job and demand all your deposit back. Take photos of how you have left it too. Unless the things you concede will cost more than the deposit, in which case dont bother. But do remember fair wear and tear is covered.

HeckyPeck · 01/07/2021 15:36

I would contact Citizens Advice or Shelter who can provide free advice for you re where you stand and what evidence the landlord has to provide. You might get more back than you think!

Wallpapering · 01/07/2021 15:40

Has to be mutual agreement on both sides for deposit to be released, he has put it secure deposit scheme? Because if not he legally fucked

I’ve only had itineraries no photos even though agreement said about professional cleaned upon check out they could get fckd also I did it myself, most places I rented left in better state than when moved in.

General wear and tear is acceptable, things that have been done via damage like burning hole in carpet is not or any damage caused where not reported ie leaky pipe is on you.

Last landlord was a dick tried to pretend the person mesg me was a solicitor and it going to cost £200 to get gardener to sort over grown bushes - bastard fence climber grew like wild fire. So I replied back having spoken with my pretend solicitor and gardener and said it will cost this much. My deposit was released next day minus price I gave them.

How bad is house?

Beowulfa · 01/07/2021 15:42

As far as I'm aware there's no definition of "professional cleaner". Clean it yourself, thoroughly, and take dated photos. Write yourself a receipt from Lovely Polish Cleaning Lady Down The Road Ltd if they want one.

You can only be charged for damage (ie burn mark on carpet). Not fair wear and tear (ie carpet is more faded and flattened than when you moved in).

Hopefully your deposit was properly registered with one of the approved schemes?

Aquamarine1029 · 01/07/2021 15:44

Is your flat really so dirty that you need a professional cleaner? A £500 cleaning sounds extreme, something you would only expect for a place that is absolutely filthy.

JustLyra · 01/07/2021 15:48

What issues are they bringing up? The landlord is only entitled to fair recompense - not betterment and many forget that. How long have you been in the house?

Are the photographs dated and did you sign an inventory? If you didn't then they can't prove when the photos were taken.

TastyTicklemore · 01/07/2021 16:00

I'd fight this like a toger, tbh.

The desposit should be held in a deposit protection scheme. If it isn;t the landlord pays you a shit load of money.

If it is, only deductioons you agree to can be taken. Otherwise, the landlord has to appeal to the deposit scheme to make a ruling. Without any evident that the flat wasn't filthy and/or damaged when you took it on, they will be very unlikely to succeed.

Original poster

Notthatkeen · 01/07/2021 16:01

Thanks all. To answer some questions/points:

To those who have suggested I do the cleaning myself it is a firm no, I know my limitations!

I genuinely do not have time to do it well enough by the move our date and I hate it. I also know no matter how well I do it without the receipt of a professional they will try and find fault (and because I am awful at cleaning there will probably be faults to find).

I am absolutely fine with paying for professional clean. It is just working out whether I risk an outlay of £500 to pay for it with the high risk that I don't get my deposit back which will ultimately cost me more than just offsetting it against the deposit.

I appreciate people saying I can and should challenge the retaining of the deposit but the whole point of my AIBU is to try and avoid that as I can't be bothered with the stress and faff. I am trying to find a shortcut but it doesn't quite sit morally hence the AIBU. I guess that means they think I am being unreasonable which is entirely fair!

OP posts:

Original poster

Notthatkeen · 01/07/2021 16:12

For those querying the price of cleaning I have given slightly random non-outing figures and ratios to illustrate but in answer to your question it is a largish property and it is London so £500 is pretty on the nose for cleaning!

I know people are saying they would fight but I have made it clear that I would rather not and I am looking at this as an alternative as it seems pretty risk free, commercially attractive and less effort. Yet... it feels a bit wrong.

I would like to know if people view my proposed course of action as unreasonable because it is morally wrong rather than saying I should fight for the deposit which is of course another option available to me.

OP posts:

memberofthewedding · 01/07/2021 16:16

I am convinced that many landlords double dip where cleaning/redecorating for a new tenant is concerned. That is, they try to charge the outgoing tenant and then also claim for cleaning/redecorating as a tax deductable for the incoming tenant.

A lot depends upon how long your tenancy has lasted. For example if you were there 10 years then the LL should have replaced the carpet in that time and probably most of the appliances so cannot claim for damage/wear to those. The longer you have been there the more you can get away with.

Staringouttosea · 01/07/2021 16:18

The landlord would have needed to check you in properly with a signed inventory if he wishes to rely on these photos as proof of condition. Without this, he is not entitled to keep any of your deposit for damages. I would let it go the to tribunal and let them decide.

JustLyra · 01/07/2021 16:22

If you can afford to "not be bothered with the faff" of getting your deposit back then do that.

If you want it back you'll have to be bothered with the faff.

As long as your deposit is in the proper protection scheme it's really not a faff. Your LL would have to have dated photos and a signed inventory for a start. Otherwise it's just your word against theirs at your walk in condition.

chesirecat99 · 01/07/2021 16:24

Assuming you are in England:

Cleaning

The landlord cannot require you to use a professional cleaning company and the property only has to be cleaned to the same level it was when you moved in. If they don't have photos or an inventory or a receipt showing the cleaning standard at move in, they can't make deductions.

The best solutions are:

You clean the property for free
Hire a professional company that has a 48 hour guarantee and tell the landlord that you have the guarantee so the check out inspection needs to be done within the 48 hour window. Tell them it is done outside the window, any faults will be their liability to rectify.

Photos/Wear & Tear

The TDS accepts photos without a date stamp as being taken on the date the person claims they were taken. That could be an issue if the landlord is claiming old photos were taken when you moved in and they don't have a date stamp.

I would write to them now and tell them that you were not provided with an inventory or photos at the beginning of the tenancy and if you had been sent those photos, you would have disputed them as they do not reflect the condition of the property at move in and you have your own move in photos. Suggest they may have sent old photos in error... If they say they did send them, ask for proof.

Then take photos with a digital camera or phone that you have manually set the date to your move in date. If the landlord is going to lie, you might as well lie yourself. Although don't take photos of anything you genuinely have damaged and are liable for.

Hankunamatata · 01/07/2021 16:25

Surely carpets and flooring are reasonable wear and tear

Namechange1067949 · 01/07/2021 16:25

If I thought i was losing my deposit anyway I wouldn’t clean

I would say though that the landlord can’t prove when those photos are. It’s up to them to prove you damaged it, not up to you to prove you didn’t.

I know you’re saying you don’t want to ‘fight’
But if you’re accepting the loss of money anyway I don’t think there’s any harm in Sending an email like -
‘I’d like my money back or obviously I’ll speak with the ombudsman/wherever the money is held, there’s no evidence those photos are from when I moved in, there’s no evidence of the condition when I moved in. Nothing is dated and I didn’t sign anything. These photos are not accurate. I left the property in the condition I found it, as I was obliged to do.’ You could add in a bit about being a good tenant, paying your rent on time or whatever, if you did.

Would take you two minutes, and if they say no they say no, - you thought you’d lost the money anyway
if they say yes, great. That’s more money than you were expecting to get back.

TeachesOfPeaches · 01/07/2021 16:32

I've got my whole deposit back twice via contesting through the deposit scheme. It's really easy if you never signed an inventory - the onus is on the landlord to prove everything, not you. You just need to fill in a form online and wait for the outcome.

Regarding the cleaning, I paid £150 for 4 people to clean my 1 bedroom flat and it took them around 3 hours I think to do a proper end of tenancy clean. It was sparkling. Also London.

2bazookas · 01/07/2021 16:47

Bite the bullet and clean the place. You can do it yourself.

If you don't, he may take you to small claims court to recover the rest of your debt, and you end up with a court order against you that could have far -reaching consequences (with other LL's,. credit rating etc).

  The  pre-tenancy photos he has recently sent to you,  are presumabl;y copies or print-offs from his own records.  The copies may not be date-stamped but don't assume from that,    he can't prove when they were taken. 

      The fact they "look better than you remember" is  not  enough to support you in court.   Professional photos of interiors  rooms often look better than the real thing  (we've often joked about this when viewing our own homes' sales brochures prepared by the selling agent .). Lenses and lighting can do that.

Shamoo · 01/07/2021 17:21

I don’t see an issue with it OP. My tenant actually did this by agreement when he left, as I knew this way I would get the clean I wanted and he couldn’t be bothered to sort it. I think it’s fine if you are happy to let the whole £1k go: and I agree that unless what you have done is awful, they won’t go to court.

NekoShiro · 01/07/2021 17:30

This is the whole point of paying the deposit, just leave it and they will use the 1k money to fix it, it's why they take it. If it's to much for you to do then just eat the loss, don't gamble.

ForeverSausages · 01/07/2021 17:37

Just take the loss OP. I paid for a professional clean on my old flat (shithole with an even shitter landlord) and he still deducted stuff off the deposit for honestly crazy stuff (I also didn't do a proper itinerary when I moved in) and I ended up at a loss. Hindsight is a wonderful thing ain't it.

CopperBear · 01/07/2021 17:40

@FFSFFSFFS

Are the photos dated? If you take them to the deposit protection scheme they have to provide credible evidence

In theory Which deposit scheme are you actually with OP? The last house we rented, the landlord provided a fake checkout inventory to the DPS and got our full deposit because we'd "agreed" to the damage. Even though we never saw or signed any checkout inventory because at checkout the landlord told us it was fine. Despite him having no check in photos (and us having ours), despite a statement from the NDN about damage pre-dating our tenancy, despite messages showing the landlord was happy after we left etc etc etc, the DPS still took his word over ours based on the forged checkout document. Let them take your deposit.

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