To be confused by SEN, Autism, etc in children?

[Sallygoround631]

A sensitive topic, but I am curious, and hope that it isn't somehow improper to ask.
I admit to ignorance, because I don't have children, and I have not had much experience with children with SEN, Autism, allergies, etc.

What I want to know is, in your opinion, are there more kids with these issues now than, say, 40 years ago, when was a kid in the 80's? (when everything was put down to orange smarties and over activeness)

Was it simply less diagnosed or unknown, and put down to other, behavioural issues?
If so, then I am very glad we are no longer living with such ignorance.
But I am also curious to know if these cases have increased, or merely been there all along?

If they have increased, what are the reasons? Does anyone know?

I feel this is a tender topic and do not wish to cause upset. I am absolutely out of the loop and would love to hear about it.

Educate me!

I think it's definitely down to diagnosis. When I think 30 years back to my primary school, I can think of kids who were just thought of as 'naughty' who almost certainly were on autism spectrum, ADHD etc. I remember one girl called Kelly who everyone said was 'naughty' - not sure why, I vaguely remember she'd get up and move around the classroom when we were supposed to be sitting still and paying attention. She left the school before we finished, but looking back on it, I'm sure she had special needs of some kind.

There were two boys in my secondary school I'm sure in retrospect were autistic, but I don't think diagnosed. I went to a grammar school, so I probably saw fewer undiagnosed kids with SEN than many did.

As others have said, there's also more kids surviving early or traumatic birth who may present with SEN now.

[quote ThyNameIsDave]@Emilyontmoor why not Autism Speaks? Is there an issue there? I haven't been in contact with them at any point. I'm very lucky in that our local Autism charity is brilliant and have been incredibly helpful.[/quote]
Even Autism Speaks doesn't like Autism Speaks. The UK branch severed its links and changed its name in order to distance itself from them. Their attitude towards autistic people is horrible as evidenced by this advert of theirs, which is what led to the break with Autism Speaks UK:

@Percie

Yes, massively undiagnosed, especially in females. You'll find a surge of women over 40yo being diagnosed at the moment. It was always there.

It's good that finally professionals and others are waking up to the prevalence of autism among women. But many, many men have missed out on diagnosis too. Most men over 40 or so who have it will not have been diagnosed unless they have gone through a private assessment.

Before the mid/late 90s, the only people diagnosed with autism tended to be those that also had severe learning disability.

@Echobelly

I think it's definitely down to diagnosis. When I think 30 years back to my primary school, I can think of kids who were just thought of as 'naughty' who almost certainly were on autism spectrum, ADHD etc. I remember one girl called Kelly who everyone said was 'naughty' - not sure why, I vaguely remember she'd get up and move around the classroom when we were supposed to be sitting still and paying attention. She left the school before we finished, but looking back on it, I'm sure she had special needs of some kind.

There were two boys in my secondary school I'm sure in retrospect were autistic, but I don't think diagnosed. I went to a grammar school, so I probably saw fewer undiagnosed kids with SEN than many did.

As others have said, there's also more kids surviving early or traumatic birth who may present with SEN now.

Lots of people now diagnosed as autistic (or who WOULD be diagnosed as autistic if they underwent assessment, not everyone chooses to) would have been in grammar schools the length and breadth of the land. Clever on paper but undiagnosed. Often seen as geeks, often very awkward, often struggling hugely with social interactions. They would just not have been identified as having SEN.

The maths and science departments in particular of every university contain a large number of such people, ditto research institutes, ditto NASA, Silicon Valley.

SEN includes learning disabilities but isn't confined to them.

There’s no way my children wouldn’t have been diagnosed 40 years ago. They are both non verbal, and the effect of their autism is pretty textbook.

I’ve read a lot of interesting research into causes and believe there are a combination of factors - one factor seems to be maternal vitamin D deficiency. That would make sense for us. As vitamin D deficiency is increasing, it seems to make sense to me that this is a possible factor. But it’s likely to be a combination of factors, similar to other conditions where a combination of factors need to occur together for the condition to occur.

Haven’t read many replies, my son has been diagnosed with ADHD but in the 80’s early 90’s when I was at school, I do know of quite a few that may of been on the spectrum, unfortunately they were just labelled as naughty and disruptive and unfortunately because of this I learned nothing at school as our class was always on report I do know that a far few of them have turned now to a life of crime & drugs 😞

Echobelly I went to a grammar school, so I probably saw fewer undiagnosed kids with SEN than many did. Highly unlikely. SpLDs for instance affect 10% of the population regardless of intelligence and the most selective schools in the country like Westminster and St Paul’s have that level of pupils with SpLDS. The Grammar School selection process has for years relied more on tests of reasoning than attainment. There is no reason why someone with a SpLD could not do well in a true test of ability not attainment, other than psychological barriers. I reached the score that got me into a super selective Grammar as opposed to the next tier or a secondary modern. That is equally true of autistic people with that level of ability. It wasn’t then necessarily the best environment but I definitely wasn’t the only pupil who has subsequently recognised why they were different and the traditional memory based pedagogy failed them.

That will not have changed with the rise of the tutoring racket, the brightest will still get in regardless of not being trained like a prize racehorse, it will just reinforce the tendency to memory based learning in Grammar Schools. Though actually in the most selective private schools they do recognise that the pedagogy that suits pupils with learning difficulties can benefit other pupils too. The High Mistress at St Paul’s’ Girls School has long been an advocate. They also recognise how neurodiverse pupils and different ways of thinking contribute to their academic community.

There is definitely a thing of under diagnosis in the past. And getting diagnosis now isn't that easy.

All sorts of SEN are under diagnosed and under resourced. SEN children are likely to be thrown out of private schools. The majority of MPs who make decisions are privately educated so have no idea on how SEN children struggle in school and how much it can not only disrupt the SN children but the rest of the class too.

SinkgirlAs vitamin D deficiency is increasing, it seems to make sense to me that this is a possible factor* So you are arguing that the numbers of autistic people and those with SpLDs has increased as a result of environmental causes? That it is not the recognition that children who are not affected profoundly enough to have been recognised in the past, as yours would have been, could still be severely affected in their school experience as highlighted by so many experiences on here?

My DCs and DNs are diagnosed, my DB was so severely affected it was diagnosed in the 70s but I now recognise the lifelong challenges I have faced. My Father faced similar challenges, was a nightmare at school, but succeeded in business.

I struggle to see Vitamin D or any other environmental factor as the reason that we have all come to recognise a difference that has occurred in our family for 87 years?

Very under diagnosed especially in girls. I was diagnosed with ADHD as an adult and it was a revelation. You can see it tracing through my family too. In addition whilst I have always struggled I find today’s world much harder to navigate, that may make some cases of ADHD more obvious.

We also strongly suspect my FIL, SIL and BIL are autistic and certainly if they were children today it would be investigated. None of them would possibly countenance seeking a diagnosis though. They have very fixed ideas on what autism is and it could not possibly be them.

I think autistics were left behind and forced to mask more than they are now. I was undiagnosed. I fell behind in some subjects, I had to mask and it massively affected my mental health. Since being diagnosed I don't have those issues and have better mental health.

I know a few older autistics in mine and DHs families that are clearly autistic and suffered for it without being diagnosed.

Also, would someone maybe tell me why such a question could be deemed offensive?

Because it's one of those "I'm not being offensive, but..." type questions where it's usually pretty obvious that the asker thinks they already know the answer really (i.e. either 'everyone says they're on the spectrum these days' or 'it's a bad parent's excuse for their naughty child') and like asking to see if anyone can convince them otherwise. Maybe that's not you, OP, but that's why it's offensive.

I'm guessing that in addition to the 'previously underdiagnosed' answer, it's probably also the case that, thankfully, due to the relative decrease in stigmatism, more autistic people are able to mix in mainstream school, in society etc and meet partners and have children. So maybe autistic traits are passed on more.

Also let’s not forget that not that long ago those with autism and similar where often locked away in the asylums for life so it was very much a case of out of sight out of mind.

@HandforthParishCouncilClerk

The reason I and other parents despair at threads like this is that as the mother of a child with autism and SEN, it is not my job to educate you, you have a responsibility to educate yourself.

There are not more children now with SEN than there were 40 years ago, just less ignorance. The kids that were dismissed as thick, backward, naughty are now more understood than they were then.

So why are you replying? And surely posting on a forum like mumsnet does actually constitute educating yourself?

Finding a cure for autism is definitely controversial. I feel for the individuals and their families who have endured autism as a profound disability. Those people need help.

For many of us, it is much of a gift as it is a challenge. Yes I absolutely struggle to have conversations with people and as a child I had to learn to not suck on my hands in public and didn’t manage to drop the practice in private until my early teens. I get overwhelmed when information comes at me verbally. I also can see patterns in information that other people simply can’t and they are beautiful. I have made a career of this skill. I’m incredibly smart. That isn’t a brag or a boast, it’s just a fact. My brain simply processes information incredibly quickly. It’s part of why I get overwhelmed so easily. I wouldn’t give up being autistic for anything. It’s fantastic. It might be nice not to have to psyche myself up to go to faculty mixers and force myself to have at least 3 conversations, but I manage. I’m also good at real friendships once I get to know people and can relax and be myself. I just can’t handle the superficial stuff really well.

So out of interest does any one think there are naughty children or all poor behaviour is due to some kind of special needs? Because I see easy and often poor parenting choices a lot with both NT and SN children.

My DS has PDA and I understand that certain parts of the UK don't recognise this subtype of Autism. He actually is very well behaved from a distance, but he avoids doing what he is told, however it's not a classic shout, hitting or disruptive behaviour. So say you ask him to sit down to do some writing, he might go in that direction and look like he will, but he won't be able to do it.

I also wonder if I am autistic, struggled with friendship and very quick to cut people off if they wrong me 😬 The same with certain things at school I would decide I didn't like it and block out the whole subject. I get overwhelmed by oral spellings or Maths. My Dad is a very intelligent, human calculator and shy/ poor social skills, but then I lacked the modelling on how to make friends and my parents never socialised so maybe it's just that. Should I have considered this before having kids ?

Some kids are definitely badly behaved due to other reasons such as how they are brought up. But I don't think that was the OPs question

I think these is much better diagnosis these days. I was diagnosed 3 years ago, aged 45.

I think the difference is that in the 80s people were only diagnosed if they were causing a problem to other people, or were very obviously disabled. Now people are given a diagnosis if they themselves are struggling, even if it is not conspicuously obvious or a problem to other people.

Having a diagnosis has helped me a lot, as I am now able to access services that require a registered disability certificate. It mainly for getting access to exams, which I couldn't otherwise take part in, because I have sensory problems with very bright lights. With my certificate I am allowed to bring my own dim lamp to work by.

My son is also registered ASD and it means that teachers understand what's going on if he just seems a little different. It saves a lot of time, rather than having to wait while every single teacher figures him out from scratch each time. FWIW, he is very different from me, but still clearly different in his own way, from other people.

I should also say that it is now much easier for me to access good medical care, because my GP knows I am ASD and we can comfortably discuss my situation with that as a known fact. That makes things so much easier.

It's things like the fact that he knows I am super-focussed, and that sometimes that is a problem. Also that for me, food is very different from the way it is for others, and that that can be challenging. However, me being diagnosed ASD means that it is no longer wrong to be different, IYKWIM. I can wear that quite openly and be proud of it.

Well there is a lot of SN children particularly ASD at my DS' school. So I would say much more is diagnosed and seems to be from quite young here. I in fact do worry about how many in his class, even though my DS is one of 'them.' I just don't think all their needs can be met. And it must be confusing for the NT children why some children get away with certain behaviour.

Op I had a similar thread recently.

@helpmewiththisnew

So out of interest does any one think there are naughty children or all poor behaviour is due to some kind of special needs? Because I see easy and often poor parenting choices a lot with both NT and SN children.

My DS has PDA and I understand that certain parts of the UK don't recognise this subtype of Autism. He actually is very well behaved from a distance, but he avoids doing what he is told, however it's not a classic shout, hitting or disruptive behaviour. So say you ask him to sit down to do some writing, he might go in that direction and look like he will, but he won't be able to do it.

I also wonder if I am autistic, struggled with friendship and very quick to cut people off if they wrong me 😬 The same with certain things at school I would decide I didn't like it and block out the whole subject. I get overwhelmed by oral spellings or Maths. My Dad is a very intelligent, human calculator and shy/ poor social skills, but then I lacked the modelling on how to make friends and my parents never socialised so maybe it's just that. Should I have considered this before having kids ?

I think that's more of a philosophical question. And it would change with age. There's obviously no such thing as a naughty baby.

There was a study a while ago where they scanned the brains of murderers - they either had a poorly functioning prefrontal cortex (related to impulse control) or a reduced amygdala (empathy). Maybe we're all at the mercy of our brains!

@helpmewiththisnew

Well there is a lot of SN children particularly ASD at my DS' school. So I would say much more is diagnosed and seems to be from quite young here. I in fact do worry about how many in his class, even though my DS is one of 'them.' I just don't think all their needs can be met. And it must be confusing for the NT children why some children get away with certain behaviour.

Op I had a similar thread recently.

Oh yes, it must be so confusing for your poor poor child if only someone could explain it to them - obviously that would be too difficult though. Better just send all the other ASD kids off to special school so that they don't bother your child.

helpme Well obviously all children however their brain works will be naughty if not set boundaries and disciplined consistently. I certainly can’t put all the boundary testing from my DCs down to their SN.

However the issue becomes more complicated when the “naughtiness” arises from the environment they are in and failing to understand their needs. Obviously if fluorescent lighting, strong smells and scratchy constraining clothes send you into sensory overload and meltdown that is beyond your control the issue is not one of discipline and restraint, it is to get professional advice to minimise the sensory overload. That is just having the empathy to act humanely.

For me the classroom was a constant source of mystery. I had no idea how other pupils could rattle through a spelling or mental arithmetic test, I never really did learn my times tables,I still have lots of tricks to arrive at answers. So I zoned out and was made to sit on the front row because apparently that was going to make me concentrate. In the end I just joined the rebellious gang and played constant pranks on the teachers. My DB found another clever frustrated boy as an accomplice and did the same. Of course our parents imposed boundaries but if the school had actually taken the trouble to understand we couldn’t process / memorise information quickly but could be helped to develop coping strategies for that and that we needed to be engaged with the joy of learning in other ways (as my DCs have been) then I probably would have loved school as much as I have loved learning since. Not that my DCs haven’t joined in the pranks at school but they were just being naughty and it was clear what parenting was required.

@helpmewiththisnew

Well there is a lot of SN children particularly ASD at my DS' school. So I would say much more is diagnosed and seems to be from quite young here. I in fact do worry about how many in his class, even though my DS is one of 'them.' I just don't think all their needs can be met. And it must be confusing for the NT children why some children get away with certain behaviour.

Op I had a similar thread recently.

Or it’s fantastic that children are learning about differences from a young age and they are seeing reasonable adjustments being made.

Ds is just coming to the end of primary and has a fantastic peer group who have learnt to understand him and are very protective of him. I don’t think him being in a class with them has done them any harm

Not all kids with autism are 'thick' or 'naughty' or both though. Nor is autism always a handicap - it's a bloody big area now, lots of very different people are all being classed as being 'autistic' and therefore being told that there is something wrong with them. I believe that, at least for some manifestations of this sweeping concept 'autistic', it's probably a perfectly normal aspect of human neurological and learned behaviour which is now being declared a disadvantage in a degenerating economy which is less tolerant than ever before of anything outside a highly-socialised mainstream conformism.