Gina and Oxford PPE

[Possiblynotever]

My DD is in year 12. She is currently thinking about a History degree and her State school is (heavily) pushing her towards Oxbridge and a double honours. She is giving her best and her results are very good, so she probably will have the marks (although this is no guarantee). She chose a Maths A level and she is finding it hard - she reached an A but with a lot of sweating which in my mind is quite normal. She has decided not to do anything at Uni requiring further maths. Apparently, some of her classmates are amazing, especially those who want to apply for PPE at Oxford, which seems to be the achievement of all achievements. Those who get in are the best of the best, at least in my DD mind. Now, Gina Colandangelo gained an Oxford PPE which means she must have been bloody talented. The only thing she will ever be remembered for was snugging the Health Minister in his office.
What a waste. Why? AIBU in thinking that there is still a cohort of women who work bloody hard to get into the most difficult jobs and then just sit on their achievements? And why do they do this?

@drainrat

Clever women in adjacent professions don’t often become MPs because it’s very badly paid. Politics also has very inflexible and unsociable hours.

Politics especially the blue conservative variety tend to attract a particular type not just, typically middle/upper middle class, Clarendon, Oxbridge, male, pale and stale - but someone who relish public service as well as self fulfilment to hold an office of authority, power and either empowerment to make a tangible societal difference as de facto law makers or for self serving strategic arbitrage to cultivate personal relationships to potentially more lucrative future business and career paths. It’s the nuanced old boys alumni networks replacing the masons of past times with seemingly carte balance modus operandi to be a closed shop or selective admission mafia of self sustaining enrichment. The Westminster bubble is indeed a particular gold fish bowl but reflection of selected wider society otherwise labelled diversity. Born equal some fish are more equal than others. It is simply the human food chain with some/many/most MPs there based on ability and talent as well as popularity. I speak from experience with friends who failed to make the final cut to be elected after being the nominated MP candidate despite all the endless fund raising efforts, marketing campaigns and politicking. Very very low return on investment and super high risk for all those that win second or third number of cast votes to the selected MP wishing to join this Parliamentary gravy train of perks and now untold misbehaviour.

Some of us are trying out best to right that wrong @DarkMatter731 rather than simply shrug our shoulders and say that’s life. Even if we talk about these things, it’s sheds light on the subject many people would rather we didn’t speak of. I don’t accept we have to accept this is how it will always be. History tells us that the suffragettes, the civil rights movement and others didn’t accept the injustices they railed against. I appreciate that you see things differently through as the system as it stands, favours you.

@ResIpsaLoquiturInterAlia

I actually inquired about becoming an MP a few years ago (I've always fancied myself as being Prime Minister) while at university but I soon realized the returns simply weren't worth it even while in office.

All that campaigning for a small shot at being PM and instead being stuck as an MP or not even being elected. I think I was more annoyed at MP's salaries only being £80,000 for all the public scrutiny and work that you have to do while in office. The perks simply weren't worth it and as much as I enjoy public service, I'm only working to earn money.

I can imagine it's like that for most people who're considering a career in politics.

Sadly, MPs once entered politics for the right reasons, like public service and wanting to make a difference. Not the salary.

i am confused that your daughter is 'thinking about history' and being pushed towards oxford. have things changed this year. shouldn't she have applied and received her offers, finished her exams and be awaiting results. or is she taking a gap year before applying. maybe i have missed something.and dont sweat the math A - usually need further maths as well to do economics and likely an A* in both!

Well, what I have read is that she started working as a consultant for Hancock and she was unpaid at first

You realise that this wasn’t her first job straight out of uni?

She’s had a lot of director of comms/marketing roles. She seems to have taken this part-time advisorship on top of her existing paid roles, to enable her to continue shagging Matt Hancock during lockdown. Not because it was the only job she could get!

There’s a lot wrong with this situation, but “woman with Oxford PPE degree can’t find full time paid employment” is not it.

@ DarkMatter731

It does appear a bit of a lottery to win your seat as politics is so unpredictable. However once in the club although starting official remuneration is not astronomical (especially taking into account the background investment required!) - the public service perks (if calculated at market rates) is potentially very very lucrative. Think, accommodation/housing perks and a huge allowance/budget for doing the job of being a MP. All this is supposedly on tax payers funding and would be priceless if out of pocket expense. Hence aides (paid and unpaid) and a team of assistants etc all included as a part of the role in addition to base salary. A salary incidentally approved and subject to rise as it’s essentially a close shop and not truly independently determined. The perks are good but it’s public service and so essentially 365 24 7 with little personal down time (supposedly). Basically it’s a job with seemingly very flexible expenses claims. This may have contributed to past infamous issues of abuse!

I was a bit sadden two friends came second and third in past general elections (blue and yellow team). The second or first loser was well short of the winning candidate and the third placed was an also ran in a one horse race.

@Jahebejrjr

MPs have never entered politics for the right reasons. Even back in the 1960s and 70s when being an MP was synonymous with being Oxbridge-only, people entered politics because of the status, fame, and chance to become PM. People have always wanted to leave a legacy and go down in history.

You don't have Investment Bankers (Sajid Javid) and Hedgefund partners (Rishi Sunak) entering politics for public service. They have one aim and that's to become Prime Minister.

And don't get me wrong, everyone wants to make a difference and public service is great. But most people also have a family to look after which is why salary is a big motivation.

MPs have never entered politics for the right reasons. Even back in the 1960s and 70s when being an MP was synonymous with being Oxbridge-only, people entered politics because of the status, fame, and chance to become PM. People have always wanted to leave a legacy and go down in history

That simply isn’t true. Oxbridge only is a feature of current politics. In the 60s and 70s the intake was far more diverse with a number of MPs coming from working class backgrounds via the unions. There were former miners, steelworkers and postmen who wanted to make a difference. Major, who held all the great offices of state, isn’t even a graduate.

@Blossomtoes

researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-7483/CBP-7483.pdf

Table 9 on page 13.

Not sure where this idea is coming from because the data doesn't really support it.

70% of Conservative MPs were Oxbridge-educated in the 1970s.

Conservative MPs were always a majority of MPs (although you had the odd Labour stint from 76 to 79) and they were disproportionately Oxbridge-educated. The Liberal Democrats/Liberals also had a higher percentage of Oxbridge-educated MPs compared with today. Similarly, Labour had the same percentage that were Oxbridge educated back then as they do today.

Therefore, a far higher percentage of MPs were Oxbridge educated back in the 1960s and 1970s. I remember interning with my Conservative MP back in high school and he was around back then - he remarked that back then, it was pretty much all Oxbridge-educated while today, it's gotten a lot better.

A slightly higher percentage of MPs have gone to university today but back then, it was nearly as high. Among Labour, it was around 59% while today, it's around 84%. Among the Conservatives, it's gone from 68% to 83%. But that's also down to the expansion of higher education rather than MPs becoming more privileged - back then, very few people went to university.

I would actually argue that MPs have gotten a lot less Oxbridge-focused. Just look at the government statistics on this which show that Oxbridge is now only 24% of all MPs compared with a much higher percentage back then.

Look at Table 10 as well. 45% of MPs worked in professional jobs back in the 1970s while today, it's around 31% of MPs. Manual workers have declined in percentage of MPs but that's because manual workers don't really exist in the economy to the same extent as they did back then.

@HopeClearwater

Well, that is what my DD says. Her highly politically charged friends seem to think that they will be able to enter politics and change the world only by gaining a PPE degree

Yes, that’s a common feature of PPEists at Oxford 🤣🤣🤣 Most of them don’t, of course. Or they change it for the worse.

I think it is an excellent ambition to want to change the world if you are 17. The problem seems to be that since 2010 the top dog has been an Oxford graduate. And Oxford privileges pupils coming from very affluent backgrounds hence somehow detached from reality. TBH while I understand that being a PM does not pay well, there must be a reason why investment bankers go for it and they certainly do not do anything without money.

I think it is important to recognise that the achievements of private school attendees are not just down to smaller class sizes, longer hours etc but also factors that enable or drive the use of private education
eg financial security at home, parents valuing education and so on. Contrast, for example, with a care experienced youngster and you don't need an Oxbridge degree to see just how advantaged most are in every aspect of their lives. That's not to say they're all completely stupid but many more young people would get straight As (or whatever the equivalent is nowadays) given the best possible start in life.

That's why the only way to address social injustice is to invest heavily in early years and support for families. The poorest children are already behind by the time they start school so of course it is too late to address it by the time they may or may not be applying to university.

Meantime, anyone with a bit of nouse can see that the shower of shites currently 'running the country' absolutely lack ability, regardless of their academic achievement and they certainly lack the most important qualities, such as compassion and integrity.

One of (the few) benefits that I hope comes from the pandemic is opening up opportunities for the non-Oxbridge set. Think about how people get into these high flying jobs - it is typically following an internship during their university years

Now imagine you are a promising student at university who cannot afford to spend a summer in London with no pay as 1. they need to get a paid summer job to get them through the next year and 2. they can’t afford to live in London

The pandemic has opened up some opportunities for these individuals as all internships (well at least at my employer) have been wfh so whether you are in Aberdeen, Swansea, Newcastle or Belfast you are now on an even playing field - to some extent - with the Oxbridge bunch. Long may that continue, although it doesn’t totally help those that need to work in paid employment over the summer

I am fortunate enough to work for an investment bank after growing up on a council estate. That came after a lot of hard work, and in some ways luck, but I would say that my career path is about 10 years behind some of my colleagues that went to Oxbridge

The pandemic has opened up some opportunities for these individuals as all internships (well at least at my employer) have been wfh so whether you are in Aberdeen, Swansea, Newcastle or Belfast you are now on an even playing field - to some extent - with the Oxbridge bunch.

I think the complete opposite.

With no opportunities to meet people face to face and network it will all come down to who you know and those without family connections will really struggle.

MPs have never entered politics for the right reasons. Even back in the 1960s and 70s when being an MP was synonymous with being Oxbridge-only, people entered politics because of the status, fame, and chance to become PM. People have always wanted to leave a legacy and go down in history

I don't know a huge amount about politics but even I know this is just not true. Our local MP when I was younger was not Oxbridge and she was very determined to make a difference. My local MP today isn't a graduate!

The top unis can decide that that A is the only grade they will consider, as oppose to a mixture of A’s and A*’s.

These finite differences in grades are arguably down to the elite educational establishments and private schooling….

This is where those that attended private schools absolutely have the advantage*

Contextual offers? Dd got an AAA offer from Bristol her friend at local state got BBB - same course.

@TheKeatingFive

The pandemic has opened up some opportunities for these individuals as all internships (well at least at my employer) have been wfh so whether you are in Aberdeen, Swansea, Newcastle or Belfast you are now on an even playing field - to some extent - with the Oxbridge bunch.

I think the complete opposite.

With no opportunities to meet people face to face and network it will all come down to who you know and those without family connections will really struggle.

That is a fair comment.

But my view came from the experience I saw in the last year in my work where instead of the carbon copy Oxbridge brigade we had interns from all over the country and speaking with them was like a breath of fresh air (especially with my own background)

the carbon copy Oxbridge brigade we had interns from all over the country and speaking with them was like a breath of fresh air (especially with my own background)

Just another type of inherent bias!

Not sure if it’s still the same now but in my day PPE used to be the joke degree at Oxford - it was the degree that the rich posh not quite so clever kids did because it was the easy one.

Also not sure of the relevance of your DD struggling with maths, and why she should do double honours rather than a single degree. Sounds like there’s rather a lot of pressure on her.

Sounds like Gina has done well enough in life to do whatever she wants now. Shame that involves wrecking two families, but oh look a man has done that too.

I understand an Oxford education helps in gaining access to influence at the highest level. How one chooses to do it is an individual choice. I think you're missing the point in a spectacular way OP.

@DarkMatter731 I don’t accept your point. In the past many people became MPs as second careers because of their experiences of injustices in real life. This compares to the career politicians we now have who resent the so-called low pay and who only care about their own progression.

Not sure if it’s still the same now but in my day PPE used to be the joke degree at Oxford - it was the degree that the rich posh not quite so clever kids did because it was the easy one

Of course it's not the same now (if it ever was) No degree at Oxford is easy. This just shows that snobbery was alive and well in your day!

I feel quite sorry for GG at this point.

I think the basic mumsnet wisdom is kind of
if the bloke has been unfaithful once, he will do it again.

Nugget of wisdom in there.

I feel she would be much better off building a network of friends/colleagues and female contacts.

After all, he is a balding, dishonest txxt. Not worth losing your life for a quick snog.

@Moonlaserbearwolf

Theresa May was a Geographer - Oxford of course - but Geography is pretty lowly as Oxford degrees go. I can say that with some authority as the proud holder of a first in Oxford colouring in. Do you know how many politicians didn’t read PPE at Oxford OP?! Clearly not.

I think the time of Geography being a lesser degree, plus jokes about ‘colouring’, are well past. Oxford is the top rated University in the world for Geography. Not only in the UK, in the world. An Oxford Geography degree opens doors, career wise.

I have a Cambridge degree. Among my immediate peers are a few people who stayed in academia and are now professors in their field, the current Mayor of Greater Manchester, a couple of Vicars, plenty of people who entered professions such as law, teaching and engineering and more than one person who chose to pause their career to become stay at home parents. It's a very mixed bag and that is entirely normal.

I work part time for a Local Authority, so I'm guessing you would think I've wasted my education, but I disagree. There is value in what I do, it is what I chose and I continue to apply things I learned at university to what I do.