Is this harsh or AIBU?

[Anonymouse21]

My child is in Y3 at school (aged 7) they are autistic and have ADHD. DS came home from school yesterday very upset as he had been kept inside at break times and lunch. This was because he made an inappropriate comment towards another child at after school club LAST Wednesday!

He did not attend school last Thursday and Friday as when we picked him from after school club last Wednesday he was clearly unwell (high temperature, sore throat). We were not told about the incident at the time or what the consequence would be. Of course by the time DS went back to school yesterday it had been almost 5 days since he made the inappropriate comment. AIBU to think that’s too long for a 7 year old with autism and ADHD to make the connection to his behaviour so as to be a meaningful consequence.

I asked him about his behaviour and he said he lost control as all the children were annoying him (I expect his tolerance towards others was further reduced because he wasn’t very well). He knows what he said wasn’t appropriate but from his perspective other children annoy him and make comments towards him - he tells the teacher, he then gets told to stop being a tattletale. He then loses control, the other children tell on him and he gets into trouble. He can’t see a difference between his behaviour and theirs only that he gets into trouble and they don’t.

I also think that missing all his breaks for the day is too much - he needs movement breaks, it’s his chance to blow off steam. He was most upset at being kept in because it was hot and stuffy inside. He needs lots of outside time each day so I think it was overly harsh to keep him in all day.

He was extremely upset and we had a very difficult evening with him, then this morning he made me late for work as he was screaming he hates school and wouldn’t get dressed. I’m very frustrated as he was just starting to settle and I feel the situation has been very badly handled. Not sure where to go from here though.

My son's EHC plan specifically states that missing break/lunchtimes shouldn't be used as a punishment, because punishing a child with ADHD by not letting them run off energy is just daft

I think he does see the difference otherwise he would tell you what he said. He's given you this whole tale of woe about what they said but refuses to say what HE said. This tells me that he does see the difference and is trying to pull the wool over your eyes. He knows exactly what line he crossed and he won't tell you because he wants your sympathy.

I disagree. He doesn’t generally try and get out of trouble if anything he usually talks himself into trouble through his honesty. As I said before sometimes his perception of reality is warped so he appears untruthful but I’ve actually never known him deliberately lie.

Yes I'm with you @DeciduousPerennial it's amazing to discover all the 'options' isn't it? Wonderful world of Sen! And as for the EHCP -the process is a positive delight for those of us at the start of this journey - which I have no doubt will be filled with joy, song and...oh shit, no.

He doesn’t have an EHCP. At the moment I don’t think he would qualify. His CAMHS worker said last week it was something we needed to think about before secondary school as although he copes in mainstream primary she thinks he will struggle in secondary mainstream.

So is the best way forward to ask the school to consider not using removal of all break times as a consequence. Not to say he shouldn’t be punished but his breaks should be protected?

I actually think the best thing is him writing the letter of apology because that does help him to see he has upset someone. He actually hates upsetting people, he’s very much a people pleaser. But he quickly spirals downward if he isn’t well managed.

The school needs to adjust to his needs more.

I would not let this go.

He’s going to mess up & get it wrong sometimes & he does need consequences but it’s sounds like they’ve taken away something that’s a fundamental need for him. Not something he wants. Or something he likes. Something he NEEDS. That’s not ok.

My youngest is autistic. I would not be happy at all.

Other than not sitting near any other children in class because they either annoy or distract him (basically has his own desk at back of room), I’m not sure what adjustments school has in place.

He did tell me he was in a ‘secret anger management’ group but then yesterday he said the group was pointless because he did what they taught him do but he still gets into trouble. He tells a teacher when he is upset but they just say ‘stop tattle telling’ then other children tell on him and he gets into trouble. This is the thing that made him most upset it seems.

He doesn’t have an EHCP. At the moment I don’t think he would qualify. His CAMHS worker said last week it was something we needed to think about before secondary

I would apply now in all honesty and ask the local authority to do a Needs Assessment. You don't need to prove what needs he has in order to apply, the legal test is simply that he has an identified need or he may have a need. He has a diagnosis so he already has an identified need. It's then up to the local authority to assess what his needs are, you then get opportunity along the way to add to the reports by providing your own (e.g., parent views forms, child view forms, copies of reports from professionals you've had input from, etc). IPSEA have template letters on their website that are easy to use and adaptable. When I applied I used the template, added on a paragraph about DS diagnosis, what support he was getting at school (very little at that stage), and what problems had arisen at school due to lack of support for his needs. The LA did refuse to issue so I took them to tribunal and they conceded (as they do in over 90% of cases as they have a low chance of winning, the tribunal will almost always rule in favour of the child), DS got his EHCP issued less than six months after I initially applied for it.

He doesn’t have an EHCP. At the moment I don’t think he would qualify.

Well, this seems the problem. You're expecting special treatment / adjustments without having an EHCP.

Oh. Are they not supposed to make reasonable adjustments anyway? I thought EHCPs were like a last resort? Like once the school does everything they can possibly do, if needs are still not met then you go for EHCP?

Even without an EHCP the school has a legal obligation to provide appropriate support to children with identified needs, such as the identified needs the OP's son has.

@BrilliantBetty

He doesn’t have an EHCP. At the moment I don’t think he would qualify.

Well, this seems the problem. You're expecting special treatment / adjustments without having an EHCP.

You are incorrect

A school has a duty to provide support and provision and support for kids with SEN, they have budget for this...a diagnosis proves SEN. An EHCP is for a kid with SEN and needs specialist provision - the fact a kid has SEN and may need specialist provision should get him assessed (per the law) but in practice that is not the case.

@BrilliantBetty

He doesn’t have an EHCP. At the moment I don’t think he would qualify.

Well, this seems the problem. You're expecting special treatment / adjustments without having an EHCP.

Why are people being so hostile, 'special treatment', seriously??

OP maybe AIBU isn't the best place to post this what with all the lack of empathy and bitchery going on.

I get where you're coming from, YANBU at all.

The EHCP formalises matters by setting out exactly what support is needed, who is responsible for providing it, and who it will be funded by. It has both short term and long term outcomes built into it and includes regular reviews to track progress and amend as necessary (and it also sets out how progress will be measured/checked). If a school is dicking about with support then applying for an EHCP can help sharpen their focus by giving them a clear breakdown of what they need to be doing.

Yes, I forgot how judgemental some people are. It’s a bit like water off a ducks back now I find. In that sadly I’m used to it.

A lot of this discussion seems to have missed what I think is the main point (so maybe I’m off), but no child should have their playtime withdrawn unless there has been a violent incident that necessitates them staying in for the safety of others.
I’m a teacher and on the very few occasions I’ve kept children in (usually because I am told to by management) I ensure that they still get time outside with a classroom assistant after the other children return. Everyone needs a chance to blow off steam and get fresh air.

Ha! Wait until you get an EHCP and (depending on what it includes) get to hear about how "unfair" it is that your DC gets a TA, no homework, and daily circuit training during registration because "all the children should be allowed that".

He should definitely have consequences but I think break and lunch is too much. Usually for a small offence it’s break and then a bigger offence it’s lunch. I would rather it was spread over a couple of days as everyone needs to get fresh air and exercise. I would be tempted to double check this is what actually happened and clarify what was said. You can say it in a way that you are concerned about his language and will speak to him at home etc.

You say the teacher isn’t qualified yet. If they are a trainee they should have a qualified teacher with them.

Removal of break time and lunch time for one day is the top step of the behaviour policy - but the behaviour policy also a states a letter will be sent home to inform parents and I have not received a letter. Usually the behaviour policy is applied step wise but for serious issues like bullying which is zero tolerance you go straight to the top.

My son wouldn’t remember what was said today nevermind last Wednesday. The teacher has a lot to learn.

The teacher confirmed via message that he had missed his break and lunch for making an inappropriate comment but didn’t want to discuss further in a message so I have to arrange a time to speak to her.

My 6yr old has ASD and we went thro a period of frequent break and lunchtime detentions. He struggles with his behaviour and tho improving I agree with the need for a consequence (even if I doubt the sanity of this consequence for a boy who can't sit still).
However this was being reported back to me by his brother and like you I felt we weren't getting a reliable account of what happened.
I asked for a communication diary (now online) which was sent home every Friday or more frequently if anything needed. Gave the teacher a chance to accurately report issues, let's me flag issues, if for example he was having a period of difficulty with his clothes which might cause distress, and serves as a record of issues if further support is gonna be requested.
I've found it very helpful, and even acts a a slight deterent when he knows the book is coming home to me with an issue in it.

I don't really see that they had another choice to punish him when they did, if he was off school Thursday and Friday? When else could they have done it?

Obviously I'm sure they'd have preferred to deal with it Thursday like they did the other child, but they didn't have that option, and his disability doesn't mean he doesn't have consequences.

I have an adult DC who is autistic, not diagnosed as a child. They need an escape for when they get overwhelmed and at risk of a meltdown. My DC has permission to leave any environment at uni for a break and time to cool off if they need to. For any family occasions I make sure there is an escape. School should make allowances for autistic children, very unkind not to. My DC has ADHD as well.

I don't think your being unreasonable here. It is clear that the approach to your child's social interaction and his learningnof social skills and social rules needs a more guided and personal approach that accounts for his autism and ADHD. Your story sounds to me that this is not adequately addressed by his teachers. I think you should discuss the wider strategy here as this shouldn't only be about his reactions and your teacher reaction to this situation but about a strategy that helps your DS to feel part of school life, without judgement, bullying and alienation but also with a clear framework of what is and isn't acceptable and what are and aren't appropriate consequences. Also I do think this is a sensitive situation that if managed well can enable your DS to grow socially or if badly managed can really damage his social skills and further school life. You should keep pushing for dialogue here and as your son seems to have a good understanding and perspective of his own position, I wouldnt be afraid to make him part of this conversation and ask him what clarity / help/ support he needs.

his disability doesn't mean he doesn't have consequences

No one has said he shouldn't have consequences but removing his break time should not be one of those consequences and the school should be more proactive in intervening before he reaches breaking point as this would have prevented the incident occurring in the first place.