Is this harsh or AIBU?

[Anonymouse21]

My child is in Y3 at school (aged 7) they are autistic and have ADHD. DS came home from school yesterday very upset as he had been kept inside at break times and lunch. This was because he made an inappropriate comment towards another child at after school club LAST Wednesday!

He did not attend school last Thursday and Friday as when we picked him from after school club last Wednesday he was clearly unwell (high temperature, sore throat). We were not told about the incident at the time or what the consequence would be. Of course by the time DS went back to school yesterday it had been almost 5 days since he made the inappropriate comment. AIBU to think that’s too long for a 7 year old with autism and ADHD to make the connection to his behaviour so as to be a meaningful consequence.

I asked him about his behaviour and he said he lost control as all the children were annoying him (I expect his tolerance towards others was further reduced because he wasn’t very well). He knows what he said wasn’t appropriate but from his perspective other children annoy him and make comments towards him - he tells the teacher, he then gets told to stop being a tattletale. He then loses control, the other children tell on him and he gets into trouble. He can’t see a difference between his behaviour and theirs only that he gets into trouble and they don’t.

I also think that missing all his breaks for the day is too much - he needs movement breaks, it’s his chance to blow off steam. He was most upset at being kept in because it was hot and stuffy inside. He needs lots of outside time each day so I think it was overly harsh to keep him in all day.

He was extremely upset and we had a very difficult evening with him, then this morning he made me late for work as he was screaming he hates school and wouldn’t get dressed. I’m very frustrated as he was just starting to settle and I feel the situation has been very badly handled. Not sure where to go from here though.

This is the wrong place for asking about children with additional needs, you can tell already by the responses.
It was most definitely the wrong punishment and it shouldn't be used for any child let alone one with autism and ADHD.

Whatever happened it wasn't a suitable punishment for his individual needs. YANBU.

Exactly this. Removing playtime, especially both playtime that day, is an unfair sanction particularly when a child has additional needs requiring a movement/sensory breaks. Does he have an EHCP? I had it written into DS' that his playtimes/breaks are protected as he needs the opportunity to move and have a break from the classroom environment otherwise he'll end up in a spiral of escalating "misbehaviour" that is actually due to his needs not being met. Luckily his current school doesn't believe in removing them anyway and all children have protected break times but his old one school were constantly removing it.

Whilst I might have agreed that 5 days was too long for cause and effect, it seems as though your DS is clearly linking the 2. So actually it was not too long

My DS would be able to tell me "I got kept in today because I made an inappropriate comment last week" but he would simply be repeating what he'd been told by the teacher/school and wouldn't necessarily have a clear understanding of the link between the two. For many autistic children in mainstream settings, a high verbal ability and keen memory can lead to staff overestimating their other abilities.

OP, it sounds like they're not supporting him very well to recognise his trigger points and that they're also not monitoring him for signs he is reaching them so that they can step in as appropriate, it also doesn't sound like they're supporting him in developing social skills. I'd say that an urgent meeting with the SENCO is needed and if he doesn't have an EHCP then I'd consider applying for one, you can do it yourself and there are some good guides out there on how to go about it.

@Anonymouse21
I would not assume the ‘teacher’ is best placed to make an appropriate judgment.

Judgement about what? If the comment is inappropriate? And why have you put 'teacher' ?

Appropriate to have consequences but they should be pretty immediate ones and they should have been discussed with you at the time.
Even as an adult you’d be pretty pissed off to have something happen and then be reprimanded 5 days later for it.

Given that he wasn't in school Thursday or Friday do you know that the other children were not dealt with then?

I asked him this and another child got the same consequence on Thursday, that child had apparently said ‘something about a crush or something’ and laughed. DS said he had no idea what it meant but it sounded funny so he laughed too. Then later he was annoyed with everyone so he lost his control. They both had to write a letter of apology to the same child who DS says kept coming back to up to him after he told them repeatedly to leave him alone.

So that child who he had to write an apology letter to didn’t get into trouble. Despite the fact DS said he repeatedly asked them to go away from him.

I think YABVU. Especially to put teacher in quotes in one of your responses. If you are so unsatisfied with the school, and your son is unable to adapt appropriately in mainstream around his peers, are you exploring other options with your local authority?

Your son not being able to distinguish between comments doesn’t mean other children should be subjected to his lashing out. Consequences don’t disappear simply because you’re absent either. Autism, ADHD and spectrum disorders are incredibly challenging for schools to manage, especially when they have two dozen other children in class too who deserve to experience fairness. The child your son upset deserves to see justice, not have their feelings swept away. These underlying issues are partial explanations - but should not serve as excuses.

Autism, ADHD and spectrum disorders are incredibly challenging for schools to manage, especially when they have two dozen other children in class too who deserve to experience fairness

This does not excuse the school from their statutory obligations to meet the needs of the OPs son and to support him properly. Punishing him for a situation that appears to have arisen due to their mismanagement of his needs doesn't excuse them from it either.

Unfortunately the majority of schools are shit at dealing with children with additional needs. They blame that child because they loose control and don't bother to investigate why they lost control.
We had this with a particular teacher in Y5 and he could never seem to understand why he needed to look at the bigger picture. Children quickly worked out they could wind my daughter up until she lost control and then get her in trouble while they got away with it.
I'm surprised your son didn't lash out as he was kept in all day.
Talk to the school, find out what happened, discuss consequences if something like this happens again.
Your son might have made the connection but surely there should have been instant consequences at after school club? I'd also be questioning why none of the staff noticed he was ill.

It's so difficult to say without knowing what was said. My son has special needs and he would really struggle with being told to go away repeatedly (not that your son was wrong for telling the child to go away), but you need to find out exactly what was said. If your son was not in Thursday & Friday did he receive the same punishment yesterday as well as today? I can only guess that the level of punishment suggests it was a really inappropriate comment. YANBU to have been told exactly what was said and also what the consequences would be though.

If you are so unsatisfied with the school, and your son is unable to adapt appropriately in mainstream around his peers, are you exploring other options with your local authority?

As for this comment....

Firstly, places at a specialist provision are not just handed out to anyone who asks. It is a long process and it has to be shown why that setting would better suit the child than a mainstream setting. Local Authorities will always push for mainstream, particularly if a child is able to meet academic targets.

Secondly, children with additional needs have a right to access the same opportunities and experiences as other children including the right to an inclusive education within a mainstream setting. A mainstream school should make appropriate adjustments to provide this.

There's not enough information here to say YANBU/YABU.

However actions do have consequences. How would you prefer he be shown that?

Oh, and thirdly, how should the OPs son adapt appropriately without the school supporting him to do so and supporting him to develop the necessary skills?

‘Teacher’ because they are not yet a qualified teacher. Appear very young and inexperienced and have been in his class for only two weeks so don’t actually know him.

I’m not dissatisfied with the school in general. Particularly the last teacher he had who worked really hard to understand him and knew how to get the best out him. Unfortunately she left.
That’s why I’m unsure how to respond as I don’t want to storm in and ruin the good relationship I’ve tried build to with them. And I recognise that perhaps my anger is misplaced.

It took a long time to get him to the point of happily getting ready for school and becoming calmer at home in the evening after being at school. Feels like all that has been undone.

If you are so unsatisfied with the school, and your son is unable to adapt appropriately in mainstream around his peers, are you exploring other options with your local authority?

If only it were that simple

Does he have an EHCP or adult support? If so I would be on to them to find out what happened and why he wasn't being supported. I think there is a lack of understanding around SEN and these situations are all too common...a punishment like that is not appropriate in this case as he requires outside to regulate. Defo the it you with SENCO.

Very much depends upon what the comment was.

@sergeilavrov

I think YABVU. Especially to put teacher in quotes in one of your responses. If you are so unsatisfied with the school, and your son is unable to adapt appropriately in mainstream around his peers, are you exploring other options with your local authority?

Your son not being able to distinguish between comments doesn’t mean other children should be subjected to his lashing out. Consequences don’t disappear simply because you’re absent either. Autism, ADHD and spectrum disorders are incredibly challenging for schools to manage, especially when they have two dozen other children in class too who deserve to experience fairness. The child your son upset deserves to see justice, not have their feelings swept away. These underlying issues are partial explanations - but should not serve as excuses.

Gosh, it’s so wonderfully, quick and easy to just go off and “explore other options” with the local authority isn’t it? So many other options exist, don’t they! I find the wealth of alternative options positively dizzying at times, actually! And local authorities are so keen to get involved in those conversations, and so open to discussion and so keen to help! It’s just wonderful.

@Allllchange

I think a lot of people commenting don't get autism and the need for a sanction to be immediate and quickly dealt with. For a child who has been unwell and had to deal with a change of routine and then another change going back to school with all the anxieties that can cause. It also does need to be taken into account if other kids were trying to trigger a response. It doesn't mean there shouldn't be any consequences but they need to be that day. I would ask to sit down with the teacher and SENCO and ask how you could deal with it if near the end of the school day. We do no TV and no tablet if something has happened and my child is accepting of that as it is what is expected and there is an acceptance of not having behaved as they should.

What this person said...the lack of understanding in this thread scares me for the journey I am about to embark on with my DS who has SEN and about to start school. OP didn't say there shouldn't be a punishment or that her DS was correct in what she he said...

I can’t see how anyone could possibly think that was an appropriate punishment for a child with his needs.

And it seems crazy that you haven’t been told what the comment was and the circumstances in which it was made.

And I never cease to be surprised by the unpleasant and ignorant comments the parents of children with additional needs receive on AIBU.

I think he does see the difference otherwise he would tell you what he said. He's given you this whole tale of woe about what they said but refuses to say what HE said. This tells me that he does see the difference and is trying to pull the wool over your eyes. He knows exactly what line he crossed and he won't tell you because he wants your sympathy.

Autism, ADHD and spectrum disorders are incredibly challenging for schools to manage

After all the years of so many schools utterly failing kids with AN, you'd think someone would have come up with some sort of strategy in schools that accommodated kids with AN into the mainstream environment in a much better way.

Things like structured activities at break and 'how to' socialising for the kids who find it difficult.
Less loud bright zingy classrooms and some quiet areas kids could go to when they were feeling overwhelmed.
Teaching tolerance and understanding that all kids are different and how to respect those differences.
Okay to wear uniform on non uniform and dressing up days if that's the child's preference.
So many very little things that all the kids could do, but which would make such a big difference to kids with AN.

@nothingcanhurtmewithmyeyesshut

I think he does see the difference otherwise he would tell you what he said. He's given you this whole tale of woe about what they said but refuses to say what HE said. This tells me that he does see the difference and is trying to pull the wool over your eyes. He knows exactly what line he crossed and he won't tell you because he wants your sympathy.

You don't seem to have a clue about kids with additional needs.

@nothingcanhurtmewithmyeyesshut

I think he does see the difference otherwise he would tell you what he said. He's given you this whole tale of woe about what they said but refuses to say what HE said. This tells me that he does see the difference and is trying to pull the wool over your eyes. He knows exactly what line he crossed and he won't tell you because he wants your sympathy.

That's not how autism works. Generally children with autism don't lie because they just tell it like it is, to the extent I sometimes wish she could be more tactful. They might embalish or omit things but even this is quite rare.

@nothingcanhurtmewithmyeyesshut

I think he does see the difference otherwise he would tell you what he said. He's given you this whole tale of woe about what they said but refuses to say what HE said. This tells me that he does see the difference and is trying to pull the wool over your eyes. He knows exactly what line he crossed and he won't tell you because he wants your sympathy.

WOW....your comments show such a lack of insight...OP question is about whether she has a reason to be upset with the way the school dealt with it...not about whether child in question was right or wrong...asd kids don't (usually) have the ability to pull the wool over folks eyes...not the way they are wired.

1 in 100 people are on the spectrum (which is round and not linear FYI) so it is not uncommon yet there is such a lack of understanding or want to understand.

@sergeilavrov said exactly as someone who thinks they know how things work but has no first hand experience. Rose tinted glasses off now.

OP I'd be inclined to ignore advice from parents of NT children, they won't get it.

Ideally your school would make the sanction relate to the misdemeanor e.g after 5 days I'd expect a talk through if warranted.

For some kids taking away outdoor time is like the equivalent of banning them from drinking for the day - pointless and cruel and only likely to escalate further. Teachers don't always understand autism, it can be about forcing a child to fit a NT consequence or situation and hang the fall out, rather than adapting the consequence to one that can be understood by the child. Do they really understand your child's needs or are they thinking it's just a case of him fitting to his environment? Because the latter won't work.