To ask the historians among you to explain this even from the tudors to me? ( reformatiin related).

[malificent7]

So from what I gather Henry 8th sought to break from Rome as he wanted to divorce Katherine and Marry Anne Boyelyn. Hence the advent of the Prostestant church. Catholicism was brutally surpressed etc.

However in season 4, episode 9, a protestant lady was tortured and burned as a heretic for her protestant beliefs including the rejection of the holy communion for being the body and blood of Christ. Also some Catholic priests were plotting unsuccessfully to accuse protesrant Katherine Parr of being a heretic.
But I thought Henry wanted a protestant nation? Or could he not make up his mind? Am i missing something as I'm confused!?

@malificent7

I think that the executed lady was called Anne Askew.

She was one of the first women ‘officially’ tortured, mainly because they wanted her to state Katherine Parr was a practising Protestant. She wouldn’t name anyone, her shoulders and hips were pulled from their sockets and her elbows and knees were dislocated, she still wouldn’t give names. While she was burned at the stake the gunpowder in the Tudors was highly unlikely, especially from the Queen.

Henry would also argue that Katherine of Aragon was never his wife. The questions are:

1. Did Katherine ever sleep with Prince Arthur?
2. If she did, did the Pope have the power to issue a dispensation for Henry and Katherine of Aragon's marriage?

But Catherine Howard was supposedly betrothed/consumated secretly to Francis Dereham in which case the marriage would not have been valid with Henry.

She denied a precontract and stated he raped her.

Like Henry Mannox he definitely groomed her, Dereham called her his wife but there was no official contract as the Dowager Duchess wouldn’t allow it.

Anne Askew wasn't one of the first women tortured in this way - she was the only woman ever put on the rack and she held out unlike many men, some of whom confessed at the sight of the rack.

If you haven't seen the musical six, i recommend it, its brilliant!

Regarding The Tudors, i was traumatised by that scene when Henry wanks into a sack held by a servant, eeeeew. Do love Jonathan Rhys Meyers though.

@winewolfhowls

If you haven't seen the musical six, i recommend it, its brilliant!

Regarding The Tudors, i was traumatised by that scene when Henry wanks into a sack held by a servant, eeeeew. Do love Jonathan Rhys Meyers though.

Highly recommend Six, not totally accurate but good fun (I’m booked to see it again next week)

I also recommend
www.secretlondonruns.com/henry-viiis-wives

I’m 3 wives in and added to my knowledge along the way!

I don't agree that Anglican isn't Protestant. It's a Protestant denomination but High Anglican (which is what I am ) is very similar to Catholicism in many ways with the rituals etc where as low Anglican (which I used to be) is much more modern and cuts out the incense swinging and clergy singing the psalms etc during the the service. The key differences to Catholicism is that we don't view the Virgin Mary in the same way, and we don't believe the Eucharist is the actual blood and body of Christ only representative - and of course the revering of the Pope.
I think the church has evolved though since Henry's time and I agree with pp that his version of Protestantism was nowhere near Calvin or Luther or Zwingli and just a watered down version of Catholicism for his own benefit. But you can't have a Catholic Church without the Pope as the head so he had to reform to Protestantism

@whatthejiggeries

I don't agree that Anglican isn't Protestant. It's a Protestant denomination but High Anglican (which is what I am ) is very similar to Catholicism in many ways with the rituals etc where as low Anglican (which I used to be) is much more modern and cuts out the incense swinging and clergy singing the psalms etc during the the service. The key differences to Catholicism is that we don't view the Virgin Mary in the same way, and we don't believe the Eucharist is the actual blood and body of Christ only representative - and of course the revering of the Pope. I think the church has evolved though since Henry's time and I agree with pp that his version of Protestantism was nowhere near Calvin or Luther or Zwingli and just a watered down version of Catholicism for his own benefit. But you can't have a Catholic Church without the Pope as the head so he had to reform to Protestantism

That assumes a dichotomy with the only options being Catholic or Protestant. "Not Catholic" doesn't mean "automatically Protestant" either, and the Church was far closer to Catholicism than the Protestants.

Henry certainly wouldn't have described himself as Protestant, and to describe Elizabeth I as one is an oversimplification. I'll give you Edward VI, though. He was an aggressive reformer.

@gwenneh

'I'm not so sure. Living as the King's "good sister" was still at his very changeable pleasure. Her household was interrogated more than once, and she could never marry since the marriage was annulled based on the Lorraine pre-contract.

Not a great position to be in, really. She's more lucky she made it out alive.'

Didn't realize that. Fascinating. Thank you - I shall do some further reading.

@goddessofmischief

Also Anne, not Ann.

If you want to display your ignorance of Tudor England, claiming that their spelling of names was consistent is as good a way as any, I suppose

You should read some Hilary Mantel, it really does feel like an insight into the court of Henry Vlll.

I already have a favourite screen bottom - Tom Hiddleston in the Night Manager.

Also a quality bottom, I don't believe in limiting myself to just one favourite though

@Lellochip

I already have a favourite screen bottom - Tom Hiddleston in the Night Manager.

Also a quality bottom, I don't believe in limiting myself to just one favourite though

Fair point but if I've seen others, I have forgotten them so they can't be that good?

@whatthejiggeries

I don't agree that Anglican isn't Protestant. It's a Protestant denomination but High Anglican (which is what I am ) is very similar to Catholicism in many ways with the rituals etc where as low Anglican (which I used to be) is much more modern and cuts out the incense swinging and clergy singing the psalms etc during the the service. The key differences to Catholicism is that we don't view the Virgin Mary in the same way, and we don't believe the Eucharist is the actual blood and body of Christ only representative - and of course the revering of the Pope. I think the church has evolved though since Henry's time and I agree with pp that his version of Protestantism was nowhere near Calvin or Luther or Zwingli and just a watered down version of Catholicism for his own benefit. But you can't have a Catholic Church without the Pope as the head so he had to reform to Protestantism

That’s not strictly true either. I was brought up high Anglican and we most certainly were taught the Eucharist is the body and blood of Christ. Some Anglicans do revere Mary as well and recite the rosary. This thread just proves how broad the Church of England is. There’s clearly differences even amongst high Anglicans.

Oh but I don’t allow Catherine of Aragon because of the deceased brother’s wife bit, dispensation or no dispensation. So, I would start with Anne Boleyn, allow Jane Seymour, disallow Anne of Cleves for no consummation, allow Katherine Howard and allow Catherine Parr for a controversial total of 4.

@gremlinsateit ah henry liked to pick and chose his bible. Technically under old testament law if a man dies without children and he has an unmarried brother then that brother is not only allowed to marry his brothers widow but he is duty bound to in order to provide his brother with a legacy. Look at the story of Tamar for this ruling.

It's tech still a law under Jewish law today and a single brother of a childless late man needs to go to Jewish court and repudiate his widow in order to free her (its not a long or expensive ceromony). When we got married we had to register that my dh had a bachelor brother.

OMG. All these years of using the word Protestant and I never once connected it with protesting!! I am so thick. 🙄
Sometimes I love Mumsnet. Thank you so much.

That was for Bells3032.

@Bells3032 yes absolutely Henry quoted the Bible for his own changing purposes, but Arthur had his own household at Ludlow so it’s arguable that Deuteronomy wouldn’t apply strictly speaking

Besides, weren’t Arthur and Catherine put to bed publicly?

That’s so interesting about modern Jewish law, thanks!

he had his marriages to AB and KH annulled before he had them executed

Yep AB's marriage was annulled but she was still guilty of 'adulatory'.

I was brought up high Anglican and we most certainly were taught the Eucharist is the body and blood of Christ. Some Anglicans do revere Mary as well and recite the rosary. This thread just proves how broad the Church of England is. There’s clearly differences even amongst high Anglicans.

I was at a christening, sitting next to a friend and we were trying to work out if the church was RC - we knew the parents weren't but there were the stations of the cross and other bits we thought were RC.

We finally had a look in the prayer book in the back of the pew and found the Lord's prayer.

Im reading Wolf Hall by Hilary Mantell's Wolf Hall but I find it quite confusing...some beautiful writing but it seems to take effort to deternine who is saying what. Maybe im not that bright!

Top tip for reading WH. “He” always refers to Cromwell unless you are specifically told otherwise.

@buffyajp I agree there is variation and some high Anglican churches mention Mary more but still not to the degree in a Catholic Church. I am confused by your comment on the Eucharist though because the One of the corner stones of Anglicanism is a disbelief in transubstantiation - it's a major difference between Anglicans and Catholics. Anyway it matter not to the point of the OP but it's still a Protestant religion!

@MissLucyEyelesbarrow Don't be a dick. I'm clearly referring to the spelling on this thread, not at the time. One is my own surname. Good job I can spell it eh?

[quote goddessofmischief]@MissLucyEyelesbarrow Don't be a dick. I'm clearly referring to the spelling on this thread, not at the time. One is my own surname. Good job I can spell it eh?[/quote]
Is it being a dick when they’re right, though?