To ask the historians among you to explain this even from the tudors to me? ( reformatiin related).

[malificent7]

So from what I gather Henry 8th sought to break from Rome as he wanted to divorce Katherine and Marry Anne Boyelyn. Hence the advent of the Prostestant church. Catholicism was brutally surpressed etc.

However in season 4, episode 9, a protestant lady was tortured and burned as a heretic for her protestant beliefs including the rejection of the holy communion for being the body and blood of Christ. Also some Catholic priests were plotting unsuccessfully to accuse protesrant Katherine Parr of being a heretic.
But I thought Henry wanted a protestant nation? Or could he not make up his mind? Am i missing something as I'm confused!?

@MaloInAnAppleTree

I love Tudor history. Does anyone want to play “how many wives did Henry VIII have and who were they?” It’s my favourite game, you can wreck an entire pub quiz by playing.

I’ll go with three. Katherine of Aragon, Jane Seymour, Anne of Cleves. Anyone want to go higher or lower?

:D By whose reckoning are we counting?

The Tudors is entertaining but utter utter tripe. Watch Anne of a Thousand Days for a slightly more accurate portrayal or Man for All Seasons, or Wolf Hall. None are completely accurate but better than Tudors. As pp have said, Henry was Catholic all his life. He thought Luther and others like him were dangerous heretics and burned Anne Askew because she denied the Real Presence in the Communion. Edward, his son, was the first English monarch who was actually Protestant and then the pendulum swung back under Mary and then back again under Elizabeth.

The Church of England is both Catholic and reformed. It is not Roman Catholic and it is not protestant, see the 39 Articles of Religion. However it is also broad: for example the Evangelical movement and Oxford movement (low versus high church).

Mmm, how many wives? Two.
Jane Seymour and Katherine Parr.
Maybe Katherine Howard?

@MaloInAnAppleTree

I love Tudor history. Does anyone want to play “how many wives did Henry VIII have and who were they?” It’s my favourite game, you can wreck an entire pub quiz by playing.

I’ll go with three. Katherine of Aragon, Jane Seymour, Anne of Cleves. Anyone want to go higher or lower?

Wasn't the Cleves marriage annulled? It was never consummated, surely?

He was read the last rites on his deathbed - he was a Catholic and did not want to achieve anything but to sever ties with Rome. The dissolution of the monastries was in aid to fund his attempts to annul his marriage. It's worth remembering that as Katherine was previously married to his brother, he had to get a Papal bull to marry her in the first place - the likelihood of Rome saying they were wrong in the first instance were always very slender.

Protestantism was still seen as heresy. Part of the reason Anne Boleyn was so unpopular in court (as well as the immenae loyalty Katherine had garnered as Queen) was becasue if her Lutheran beliefs and ambitions. This also cobtributed to her downfall.

There were 10 wives, weren't there?
Most historians forget about Sharon, Karen, Tracey and Bernard.

I'm of the opinion that Anne of Cleves did better out of the arrangement than any of the other wives. She must have lived out her days in a state of perpetual relief.

@MaloInAnAppleTree

I love Tudor history. Does anyone want to play “how many wives did Henry VIII have and who were they?” It’s my favourite game, you can wreck an entire pub quiz by playing.

I’ll go with three. Katherine of Aragon, Jane Seymour, Anne of Cleves. Anyone want to go higher or lower?

I'll bite

If you're a Roman Catholic, he possibly had one: K of A - though of course he subsequently argued that that wedding wasn't valid because of her prior marriage to Arthur, so the answer might be zero. Obviously none of the subsequent marriages count, as they weren't validated by the RC Church.

If you are C of E, probably 4 - AB, JS, KH and KP. K of A set aside, A of C not consummated.

@FreezerBird

I'm of the opinion that Anne of Cleves did better out of the arrangement than any of the other wives. She must have lived out her days in a state of perpetual relief.

I'm not so sure. Living as the King's "good sister" was still at his very changeable pleasure. Her household was interrogated more than once, and she could never marry since the marriage was annulled based on the Lorraine pre-contract.

Not a great position to be in, really. She's more lucky she made it out alive.

He had two wives in the eyes of the law/church. His “divorces” were in fact annulments, which is to say the marriages were declared invalid and not legal, and he had his marriages to AB and KH annulled before he had them executed, so the only marriages regarded as legitimate were JS and KP.

Henry was a Catholic through and through. Henry also wanted to do whatever he wanted when he wanted as well as having lots of wealth that he perceived should be his. There were many religious reformers at that time that found themselves in and out of favour depending on Henry's mood.

@pallisers

If Catherine of Aragon's nephew Charles hadn't been holding the pope prisoner at the time,. it is highly likely Henry would have been given an annulment. Whether he would have disestablished the monastaries anyway is an interesting quesiton. Edward and Elizabeth were true protestants though.

I've always regarded the dissolution as an act of political opportunism as much as anything to do with religion.

It made the king and his allies very rich, and a lot of the land taken from the monks was used to reward (bribe?) his friends.

So I think he might well have done it anyway.

@Jjacobb

Op, can I ask what it is you're watching please,

The Tudors. Lots of drama, very short on historical fact.

@FreezerBird

I'm of the opinion that Anne of Cleves did better out of the arrangement than any of the other wives. She must have lived out her days in a state of perpetual relief.

In Lewes, you can visit the house that she got as part of her divorce settlement, along with the land and buildings that used to be part of Lewes Priory. You can walk through the ruins of the priory, too.

I'm getting confused with your Catherines

Catherine of Aragorn (1st wife, Catholic and anulled/divorced)
Was succeeded by Anne Boylen who was beheaded as was her cousin Catherine Howard (wife no. 5)

Katherine Parr was his sixth wife who outlived him, so not sure why you're talking about her being tortured in relation to Anne Boylen

Read the Hilary Mantel novels / dramatisations, they are much better than the series which even gives the red haired Henry black hair and a strange accent that frequently wonders across the Irish Sea, and also goes very light on Henry’s bloated, ulcered and quite possibly syphilis ridden, end. There was also an excellent radio 4 play about how Katherine Parr sailed close to the sun in her writings on Protestantism, sadly no longer available, but based on a novel, you get the idea www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000rd1r

Novels are of course putting speculation where we don’t have facts but sometimes they reflect the spirit of the time and as a historian I can enjoy that when it gets near the “feel” but the Tudors? Good bodice ripping stuff but no 😂

Henry was a Catholic, he just tiptoed around challenging Rome because it fit his agenda. Anne Boleyn was much more radical in wanting her staff to read the bible, understand the mass, etc etc. Cromwell was a also interested in the new faith, and he and Anne Boleyn initially bonded over that. Before it was expedient for Cromwell to get rid of Anne. It is also why he set up the marriage with Anne of Cleves rather than a catholic princess.

Under Catholic law he Jane Seymour would have also been a legal wife. She was a Catholic and Katherine of aragon was dead before their marriage

But I thought Henry wanted a protestant nation? Or could he not make up his mind? Am i missing something as I'm confused!?

Religion and politics were inextricably mixed for the tudors, and politics isn’t just about belief, it’s also about controlling different power bases.

what was more threatening to Jeremy Corbyn - the Tories or his back benchers? The same goes for Johnson.

Religious zealots were regarded as a threat whether they were Catholic or Protestant because they did not regard the monarch as the highest authority.

OP I really struggled with this, and the Reformation.

I would say to see Henry as of neither belief, he only served himself.

As for the executions, it can be summarised in the line from Wolf Hall, said by Thomas Cromwell. "We are looking for guilty men, but not necessarily of the crimes committed".

How many wives? I think two - Jane Seymour and Katherine Parr. But was the last one consummated? (Now I sound like a scheming Howard).

I would just add to the wealth of information above that The Tudors is among the worst of all possible dramatisations (ha) to get any fact.

Anne of The Thousand Days is a good ‘movie’
Wolf Hall is far more accurate than The Tudors
The various bits and bobs on Prime range from fab to shit

The Other Bolyen Girl is beyond shit - avoid

There are also myriad fascinating podcasts

He made it up as he went. Much like dhs you see on here who bugger off with Sian from marketing then say to their wives well we’ve beden unhappy for a while haven’t we?.

@fmpc

I'm getting confused with your Catherines

Catherine of Aragorn (1st wife, Catholic and anulled/divorced)
Was succeeded by Anne Boylen who was beheaded as was her cousin Catherine Howard (wife no. 5)

Katherine Parr was his sixth wife who outlived him, so not sure why you're talking about her being tortured in relation to Anne Boylen

They are talking about Anne Askew being tortured. She was horrifically tortured for heresy (honestly, don't Google it), then burnt. It was very unusual in England, where torture was rarely used, especially on women.

Anne Boleyn and Katherine Parr were both Protestants, and both sailed close to the wind at times, in terms of heresy.

gwenneh

FreezerBird

I'm of the opinion that Anne of Cleves did better out of the arrangement than any of the other wives. She must have lived out her days in a state of perpetual relief.

I'm not so sure. Living as the King's "good sister" was still at his very changeable pleasure. Her household was interrogated more than once, and she could never marry since the marriage was annulled based on the Lorraine pre-contract.

Not a great position to be in, really. She's more lucky she made it out alive.

Well, yes, I was comparing her situation to that of the other wives. It's a fairly low bar!