Working in nurseries.

[Ilovegreentomatoes]

I work in a nursery. We are permanently understaffed and can never seem to encourage applicants.I notice this is a common theme among nurseries struggling to recruit staff. So out of interest just wanted to know what would put people of working in a nursery? Yes pay is normally minimum wage could it be that? Or working with children in general? Just interested to hear opinions.

@Howshouldibehave

It’s not just the pay because TAs earn a v similar amount to those working in a nursery and that is hugely competitive.

Massive difference in hours. Both each day, and number of holiday days.

Many people choose to TA in a school as it fits around their own dc's school hours. Working in a Nursery (daycare) doesn't.

I've been in nurseries for 20 years. I'm on the verge of leaving for a number of reasons:

1. Pay, it is so, so low and doesn't reflect the huge level of responsibility or work.
2. Parents are respecting us less and less. I know I'm generalising, but this seems have gotten worse over the last ten years, to the point that we actually rejoice when a parent appreciates what we do.
3. The hours. I work 53 hours a week, get just 18 days holiday, no sick pay, minimal pension, no maternity etc and am expected to complete all reports and observations at home, unpaid. I usually average eight unpaid hours over the weekend trying to keep on top of it. I barely get to see my own children.
4. Working at ratio constantly, with no wriggle room. We always used to be over ratio meaning that we had a staff member free to cover if we needed the loo, needed to go out of the room for any reason. Now we constantly juggle to even go to the toilet. One member of staff has started getting uti's because she avoided drinking so that we would remain in ratio.
5. Behaviour. Related to point two, behaviour of the children has deteriorated at the same rate as the parents'. We now have more children than ever on behaviour plans and we are really struggling. None of these children have sen or even meet the criteria to be assessed, they are just not used to being disciplined or having boundaries. With all the will in the world, the work we do with them on behaviour won't stick if we are not backed up by parents, although a large number of these are looked after most of the time that they're not with us, by grandparents while their parents are working.
6. The huge, huge increase in unnecessary paperwork, meaning we get to spend less and less quality time with the children, as although we are in the room, there is so much to be done, that we can't be everywhere. We are stretched far too thin.

I am so sad at the moment, this career has been my passion, but it's no longer enjoyable and the stress is getting to be too much.

I started my childcare career in a nursery and got my qualifications through them so I am grateful for that. However the pay was awful! There was so much paperwork and it was so bitchy.
I left to become a nanny - worked 4 days a week instead of 5 but doubled my wages. No paperwork, no bitchy staff, so much freedom and flexibility. I could afford to go back but I wouldn't want to 🤷‍♀️

• Sorry I couldn't afford to go back but I wouldn't want to even if I could afford it!

Oh and as supervisor, I get a grand total of 1p more an hour that the rest of the staff. That's 1p over minimum wage.

I worked in Early Years for over 12 years, I loved it, the reason I don’t any more is my health and being physically unable to work full days. I would probably take up a very part time position if there were any posts available.

The pay is low, but after taking 11 years out to raise my own children and being widowed in my 40’s when I studied for my Level 3 and tried to work nearer full time hours I sort of accept that ☹️

When the pandemic struck I did have two little childcare jobs and a small business which have all gone. My health is even worse now, so not really sure what I will do, I could manage the children but the cleaning and clearing up all the time is brutal.

@ImInACage totally agree about the appalling behaviour, it got worse every year.

I work in a nursery. Our boss is very good to us and offers lots of perks, and whilst the pay is still way below what my friends in other industries earn, it’s at the top end of the nursery pay scale.
The problem is promotion is difficult because at a good setting, the staff rarely leave. The hours are also long, and there is a lot of responsibility for a job that tends to be looked on less favourably than say, teachers. I know many nursery staff who are far more knowledgable than some teachers, yet earn around half of their wage, working 7-6 every day. (This is not teacher bashing in anyway, I know they work hard!!)
On numerous occasions I have seen nurseries recruiting. “Must have level 3 (takes around 18mnts-2yrs to complete) and minimum 2 years post qualifying experience. Minimum wage”. That’s 4 years worth of knowledge and experience gained.
Lastly, on various Facebook groups I’ve seen questions such as “how do you promote staff wellbeing” with answers such as “oh we have fresh fruit fridays” and “we run a system where staff post annoymous kind notes to each other”- a fresh orange every Friday is not going to help staff to pay their bills, or be able to treat themselves once in a while.
So I think it’s hard to recruit because the good staff at good settings don’t want to
Leave for a minimum wage position, and also lots of the workforce have left to find employment in other industries, with better chance of promotion and earning prospects!

It is underpaid with few perks (like many caring professions).

I wish we valued nursery staff more.

low pay , long hours, low Status and unrealistic workload

The pay is abysmal. Nmw or not much more regardless of role, qualifications or experience. Staff who hold degrees and are level 6 are getting only slightly more think £1 more than a level 3 colleague.

The responsibility you have for the pay you get is huge. Even apprentices, unqualified staff and level 2 staff have to know about the welfare and learning requirements, of The Eyfs,, observation, planning, safeguading children.

Working conditions are often crap with only basic statutory holiday entitlement (20 days plus bank hols),, no company sick pay only ssp, long hours, constant training/staff meetings after the working day and never being able to finish on time because of being over ratio.

Most nurseries are full of backstabbing and bitchy staff. Many arguments between L2 experienced older staff and L3 newly qualified inexperienced staff and each trying to tell the other how to do things

Bullying nursery managers and deputies, who want the moon on a stick without respecting their staff. Speaking and treating some colleagues like dirt.

The long hours 07.30 am to 6.30pm is not uncommon. If a child is late being picked up then two members of staff have to stay. In some nurseries you are expected to clean at the end of the day whilst children are in the room.

The continuous observation, planning, writing up, baseline assessments every six weeks and planning amazing activities for each individual key child to ensure they are learning and developing well, which you are expected to plan for in a room full of children. Many nurseries do not give staff time out to complete the above.

Chronically understaffed

The ratios are legal, but if a member of staff is in the bathroom with children, one is in the garden sweeping up or dealing with a child and one is in the room doing first aid because a child has fallen over and they have to stop their activity and administer first aid.

Technically you have yhree members of staff with 3 and 4 year olds on a ratio of 1.8, but because they need to do the above tasks they are not watching or engaging with the children fully.

Parents, not all, but some treating you as if you are the hired help, thinking you are beneath them and expecting you to provide 1 to 1 education and care for their child.
Some do not respect you or your role at all.

The up selling. Pressure to get full time bums on seats, pressure to sell stuff like uniform, books etc to parents.

I own a nursery.

I guarantee the majority of what comes in - at least two thirds - goes on staff wages.

It’s not like running a corner shop. It’s probably comparable to a corner shop in terms of turnover, but the owner of a shop can get away with employing one other person or a few part time workers. In a smallish nursery, you have to employ 8 or 10 workers. For each worker, you have on costs and pension contributions. Most of the income is spent on staff wages.

Then there’s rent for what has to be a fairly spacious property. In London, it’s extortionate - £50k +. Business rates can add £20k more. In Scotland, nurseries don’t have to pay business rates; in England, they do. How is that fair?

VAT. Every other business can claim it back, but nurseries are VAT exempt so they can’t. This means that everything you buy for a nursery costs 20% more than it does any other business. State nurseries don’t have to pay VAT, of course - just private nurseries. How is that fair?

Finally, the parents. No one wants or expects to pay nursery fees once a child turns 3. As far as parents are concerned, when a child is 3, nursery should be ‘free’. The majority don’t even want to pay for food. They see that primary school children get ‘free’ food and they expect that their children should get free food also. I don’t blame them for thinking like that - it’s how the media has sold it - but someone has to pay for the food and it certainly isn’t the government.

The ‘free’ hours are funded at a fraction of the actual cost of running the nursery on a per hour basis. Again, I’m not surprised it’s so low. You only have to read these forums to understand how many kids have SEN today. Those kids cost the local authorities a fortune, and there are so many, I’m surprised the country isn’t bankrupt. But the bottom line is that the nurseries get lumbered with the loss and that affects their ability to pay the staff a fair rate.

There’s loads of help with childcare fees available to parents - through Universal Credit, the ‘free’ 30 hours and the tax-free childcare scheme. What the government has done is created a culture where parents do not want to pay for childcare. It isn’t ‘free’ - the money the government pays to nurseries doesn’t cover costs.

For staff to be paid more (as they should), the government could:

1. Remove the necessity for private nurseries to pay VAT on goods (as they have for state nurseries).

1. Remove the necessity for private nurseries to pay business rates.

1. Make it clear to parents that childcare is not ‘free’.

Just those three things would free up an enormous amount of money to pay to staff. As things stand, most nurseries are barely breaking even. They are operating under very very difficult circumstances.

Children's behaviour isn't new though, it's just that 18 years ago when I started behaviour plans were only used for SEN children.
We had some children who were horrendous on Monday, by Friday they'd be much better and follow the rules. Over the weekend parents undid all our good work and we were back to square one on Monday.

I'd love to work in a nursery but haven't a clue how to get a job in one.

Working in a nursery is a skilled, tiring, constantly taxing job but pays similiar to stacking shelves in a supermarketwith little opportunity for progression.

Minimum wage even though fully qualified.
Poor working conditions .
Constant nappy changing because most of my colleagues are trying to get out of it and I’m sorry for the children.
Huge responsibility.
Expected to juggle children with aggressive behaviour and/or complex needs with little or no support.
Expected to manage as usual with more children than the legal limits.
Expected to manage with no running water for three days!
Expected to take nursery laundry home to launder at home, using own electricity and detergent, for no extra money.
Mountains of paperwork to complete in own time, as it’s impossible to do in nursery hours. At least one hour a day, and 2-3 hours a day at end of term.
Safeguarding concerns ignored.
Often leaving late because children are not collected on time.

I work in a nursery and am trying to leave. Crazy long hours. Rubbish pay and conditions. Barely spend any time with the children as always doing paperwork, cleaning, supervising eating etc. The behaviour of many children is so awful, it's exhausting reminding them of manners, not fighting etc. So many parents just dump the kids and run. Don't care about their behaviour. At the moment it is so hot. We constantly have to get drinks, wash cups repeat all day. Apply suncream a million times a day. Change clothes because parents complain if they're dirty. Find sun hats cos no parents provide them. Take kids to the loo a gazillion times cos they've drunk so much water. Write observations for each child. Tidy up. Get more toys out. Repeatedly tidy up. Fill in constant accident forms. Speak to parents at pick up.
The list is never-ending. The actual time spent with the children is minimal. We have to take photos each day to post on parents log. We end up just making stuff up cos no actual time to do proper activities. It's rubbish.
Oh. And we have worked throughout the pandemic with no PPE , and we weren't priority for vaccinations.
I can't wait to leave.

I also work in a nursery, pay is crap unless you work for the council. All nurseries I've been in the managers don't care as long as their making money.

@Sweak

The pay is low, I think that's the main thing. You mentioned supermarkets and how they don't struggle to recruit as much but similar pay...I think that's the level 3 requirements you usually need for nurseries but not supermarkets.

I think pay progression is a problem too..like room leaders aren't on much really are they.

Out of interest what sort of salary does a nursery manager outside of London earn?

Round here (Yorkshire) it's about 25k for a manager at the moment.

For context, when I left 3 years ago as Deputy Manager I was earning 17.5k (despite 10 years experience and relevant qualifications) and walked into an entry level admin position at 22k which was what the manager at my old nursery was earning at the time. Leaving was a bit of a no brainer.

I used to do this job. Pay was above mim wage but not by much. It was very much a job as a first job for college leavers or returning to work mum who had either the tax credit system to top up their wage to cover living costs or a better paid partner. Living on your own and having pay all costs just not doable.

Why would you work with 3/4 year olds for 52 weeks a year when in a school you could do it for 33 weeks and leave by 4pm? No coming back for staff meetings on the evenings. No trainings on weekends. No early or late shifts going to and fro in the dark.

The pay, and hours.

My daughter's nursery is open 7.30 til 6.30 - the staff are there from 7.15am til usually 6.45/7pm, so working basically a 12 hour day. They rotate so they either get some early finishes or one day off a week, but still working minimum 48 hours a week. Minimum wage. I think it's disgusting when nursery costs £52 a day (and that's cheap!) and the owner drives around in her brand new 21 plate Merc.

Pay. Loved the job but couldn't live on so little money any longer.

Bullying managers. One screamed insults at a very nice room leader, because she (the manager) opened a cupboard and the tea towels were stacked untidily. Nice room leader left. Etc.
Expected to clean around children at end of day, no extra cleaning time allocated, so often vacuuming and scrubbing toilets after hours, for no pay.
Parents sending in poorly children dosed up with calpol, so constantly catching bugs.
Parents when phoned, refusing to collect sick children. Sometimes laughing and saying they were shopping in the next town, so tough.
If having to call in sick yourself, being told to ’put more water in it next time.’
Hours always added up wrongly, so pay always less than owed. Sometimes hundreds less. No apology ever.
Sometimes staff not paid at all, because ‘I forgot it was the end of the month’. Great.

I loved the children but it wasn’t worth the aggro.

So many truths here especially the children's behaviour which is so bad but are never given extra staff to deal with it.
And of course the constant messages from parents on the app like we really have time to sit and send messages back and forth throughout the day.
We also have to clean whilst supposedly watching children and do paperwork in the room yet you have parents on here saying they can't wfh with children around....well we basically have to complete day to day paperwork in a room full of toddlers!

It just doesn’t appeal to me. Dealing with poo, vomit & crying kids all the time.