Your health issues don't affect you because you have a driving license!

[NotreallyD]

My previous thread got deleted because the way I had phrased my opening post included ableist language. I didn't mean to say anything offensive and I am sorry. I wanted to create a new thread, because people had good advice, though I'm not sure it's allowed to remake my thread. I am a little confused.

I wanted to know if I was unreasonable applying for PIP, as DWP seems to think that I am.

I have ASD and ADHD, as well as co-morbid conditions as a result of those two disorders. As a result, I really struggle with day to day life, such as hygiene, food and engaging with people, as well as budgeting. In order to live a halfway decent life I have quite a few medical expenses, so I decided to try to apply for PIP to get some help with those.

I got help from an advocate to fill in my application and focus on the descriptors.

Well, I got my decision letter back, and the assessor (a physiotherapist) decided that I didn't struggle with any of my daily living activities, because...

"You maintain a driving license. Driving requires significant cognitive transferable skills. You have no diagnosed learning difficulty and you can use a phone.

Though you needed accomodations such as extra time for exams, a dictaphone, longer deadlines and support to get an education, you have a university degree. It is probable that you can manage your daily living activities. Therefore, I have decided you can manage these activities to an acceptable standard on the majority of days."

AIBU to think this is really unfair? Someone said I should blame Iain Duncan Smith, but the process is starting to make me doubt whether I actually have a health condition and who this benefit is supposed to be for. Today has been quite a rough day.

Virtually all PIP claims are refused first time - go for a mandatory reconsideration and then an appeal.

I would go for a mandatory reconsideration.

I do think due to the nature of the claim the fact you can drive probably will work against you but that doesn’t mean you haven’t got a case for asking for reconsideration

Its impossible for anyone on here to say if the decision was right from the information you've given. If you think it's wrong then by all means appeal.

Definitely go for a mandatory reconsideration. There are guides online to help you put it together.

I get pip standard daily living and on both of the assessments I had they did ask about driving. I can't drive because I would be too anxious and possibly dangerous.

I would recommend appealing as I believe quite a lot of rejected claims are accepted on appeal.

A friend of mine who uses a wheelchair due to losing a leg and who, due to another condition, cannot use a prosthetic, was told he presented 'no evidence of any mobility issues' at his assessment. He lost his DLA as it was then which meant he lost his motability car. Fortunately he was successful on appeal.

You can appeal but a alsos going through a proces of diagnosis for ADHD, a LOT of people have it, and have extra time in exams. I don't for one second doubt its affecting your life considerably, but I do think you're quite possibly above the threshold for the level of difficulty this award is meant to support.

Its challenging because there is limited support, I know people with ASD who basically can live independently but only because of significant investment by family members in supporting them but don't officially meet thresholds for intervention. Its difficult. But: do re-apply, as others have advised, if an advocate supported you did they think you had a reasonable chance?

@cindarellasbelly

You can appeal but a alsos going through a proces of diagnosis for ADHD, a LOT of people have it, and have extra time in exams. I don't for one second doubt its affecting your life considerably, but I do think you're quite possibly above the threshold for the level of difficulty this award is meant to support.

Its challenging because there is limited support, I know people with ASD who basically can live independently but only because of significant investment by family members in supporting them but don't officially meet thresholds for intervention. Its difficult. But: do re-apply, as others have advised, if an advocate supported you did they think you had a reasonable chance?

Getting extra time for exams is just one of the things mentioned in relation to being able to budget and comprehend instructions, it's not the entire basis of my claim. Time is a thing that gets missed a lot I believe. I can read, but it takes me much longer to read something and understand what has been written than it takes the average person. But when I read things such as someone being refused for a severe eating disorder because they went to university and therefore could reasonably be assumed to be able to eat food, I just don't feel confident that I have the strength and skills to appeal.

" I can read, but it takes me much longer to read something and understand what has been written than it takes the average person."

Unfortunately, if you can actually understand what is written, then the fact that it takes you longer probably won't count. The questions in the PIP form are deliberately sifting those who 'can get there with help' from those who need help even with those extra processes in place. For example, 'prepare a simple meal' means that if you can make a sandwich, you're unlikely to score.

I think it’s quite common for them to use things people have told them to argue they are not as bad as they say they are. Like asking how you got to your assessment and then if you say you walked there, you are in perfect health etc. It’s also quite common for an appeal to overturn nonsense like this. Do go through the mandatory reconsideration and appeals process. Unfortunately all the piss takers have led to genuinely disabled people having to do fight for their entitlements.

@Lougle

" I can read, but it takes me much longer to read something and understand what has been written than it takes the average person."

Unfortunately, if you can actually understand what is written, then the fact that it takes you longer probably won't count. The questions in the PIP form are deliberately sifting those who 'can get there with help' from those who need help even with those extra processes in place. For example, 'prepare a simple meal' means that if you can make a sandwich, you're unlikely to score.

I don't think that's true. I read this from an appeal, which makes me feel a little more hopeful. Though even doing an appeal would be a momentous task for me.

---

Perhaps most importantly, the judge pointed out that any reading must also be done reliably, meaning:

(a) safely;
(b) to an acceptable standard;
(c) repeatedly; and
(d) within a reasonable time period.

The judge held that “For people without difficulties in this area, reading a short sign will be almost instantaneous.”

However, many people diagnosed with conditions such as Autism Spectrum Disorder (ASD), Attention Deficit Disorder (ADD) or a processing disorder may have difficulties with visual processing, language processing, short-term working memory, concentration, focus and other issues. This may mean that whilst they have a high standard of literacy they take in written information more slowly and may process it differently and may also need to read it repeatedly in order to put it into the correct context.

Even a small delay in reading basic or complex written information would be enough to show that it takes “more than twice as long as the maximum period that a person without a physical or mental condition would take”.

But if that is using an example of reading a short sign then I think you may find the fact you are able to drive will work against you as I presume you can safely read short signs when driving?

@Sirzy

But if that is using an example of reading a short sign then I think you may find the fact you are able to drive will work against you as I presume you can safely read short signs when driving?

It would, but I'm not trying to claim that I can't read. I'm trying to claim that I can't make complex budgeting decisions, which is not the same thing.

PIP has those separate, but the assessor just lumped them all together saying that because I can read, I can also manage my finances and understand complex instructions in a normal time frame without help.

There are different rates for PIP. I don't believe I qualify for the higher rate or for mobility, but I think I should qualify for the lower rate. Talking to the PIP people makes me feel like I am wrong for thinking that I have any difficulties at all. It's disheartening.

So that case law you found isn’t really going to be relevant.

I know the system and I know it’s rediculous and designed to trip people up. I’m certainly not saying you shouldn’t ask for a mandatory reconsideration.

They have a very low bar for what they class as complex budgeting decision!

On the face of it, I agree with the assessor, (lots of people are crap at budgeting).

The purpose of DLA and then PIP was brought in to help those with disabilites pay for the extra expenses they incur.
eg a wheelchair and other equipment needed. Or carers.

If you get PIP what will you use it for?

Tbh if you can drive you must be able to read things within a reasonable time.

If you can't, you shouldn't be driving.

@user1493494961

On the face of it, I agree with the assessor, (lots of people are crap at budgeting).

I've had multiple court orders since I was 18, despite having the money to pay, because I am 'crap at budgeting'. I've gotten into pyramid schemes, have had people take money of me, accepted contracts I can't afford, because I am too anxious to say no. I find these things impossible to manage without help. Being told that I can perform all of these tasks because I can drive felt as if I was being punished for trying to be independent in any way. It took me so much effort to even learn, though I hardly use my car now.

I said all these things during the assessment, and it got reduced to me having no issues with my daily living because I can drive and went to uni. It's just made me hugely sad.

The purpose of DLA and then PIP was brought in to help those with disabilites pay for the extra expenses they incur.* eg a wheelchair and other equipment needed. Or carers.* If you get PIP what will you use it for?

It really isn't. If that's what you need it for that's fine, but if you don't need any of those things that's fine too. Not everyone who gets it needs special equipment.

You do not have to justify to anyone why you need/want it.

Sorry, I meant anyone other than DWP.

I don’t think they’re saying you have no issues with your daily living. Just that your life isn’t impacted to the degree the benefit is designed to support. It does come across as if you function to a high level.

Op the current system isn't anywhere near nuanced enough to take into account how mental or neurological conditions affect day to day life, let alone how one condition interacts with another. I swear the person who designed the system understood disability to mean 'can't walk, or can't see' and that was about it. Even then, the vile IDS expected reassessments on the basis that 'someone who has lost a limb will learn over time to adapt'. Its a cruel system. The logic behind it is one of reducing claims and a philosophy that people should change themselves to fit in with society and cope.

Please request the mandatory reassessment. A high proportion of people do this. A high proportion of reassessments are granted.

I obviously don't know how old you are, but I would think that if you are living independently, paying bills on a regular basis, etc., and you understand the concept of that, they will deem you capable of complex decision making. It doesn't mean you'll always make the wisest decision. Many, many people without disability of any kind get sucked into pyramid schemes and take contracts they can't really afford. They're life lessons. The question is more about whether you have the capacity to understand and make the decision. Do you understand that bills have to be paid on time? Can you set up systems to do that? Etc.

My DH is terrible with remembering tasks. Tasks just don't get done if he is left to remember. But he's worked around that by setting calendar alarms for everything. It still doesn't mean everything gets done, but it's a coping strategy.

As I said on your last thread, they used this against me too. I passed my driving test in 2004, and then developed my disability in 2018/19. But I was turned down for PIP because I have a manual driving licence.

The questions in the PIP form are deliberately sifting those who 'can get there with help' from those who need help even with those extra processes in place.

They're also asked in such a way as to focus purely on possibility and not feasibility. For example, if they asked this question: "Can you walk more than 50m unaided", two people answering as follows would be treated exactly the same:

A. Yes, very easily indeed - in fact I walk 3 or 4km every day without any difficulty whatsoever. Conclusion: doesn't need PIP.

B. Yes, I can just about do that at a real struggle on a good day, but it will take me a very long time to do it and leave me exhausted and physically unable to do almost anything for the entire rest of the day. Conclusion: doesn't need PIP.

I must admit, several of my own personal circumstances are borderline qualifiers for PIP, but it's such common knowledge that the government hates the disabled, clearly likes to see us struggling and wants to set you up to fail, I would be terrified to apply in case somebody arbitrarily decided with no evidence or reasoning whatsoever that 'oh, if your circumstances are that bad, you probably shouldn't be driving' and got my licence taken away, leaving me far worse off for mobility than I already am - and plenty have worse mobility than I do.

A lot of aspects of the official 'system' seem geared around completely writing you off as hopeless rather than helping you cope practically and with dignity with the things you struggle with. No concept that you're a person with your own needs, preferences, interests, commitments, many other abilities etc. - just a liability case.

Of course, they never, ever say this. It's just that, as we read on MN so often, when somebody's actions show you what they're like/what they really think, believe them.

My son's PIP claim was rejected because he can play video games. He'd had DLA since he was three years old, high rate for both mobility and care. On transfer to PIP he was given zero points follwing assessment by a physio. At mandatory reconsideration he got two points. At appeal the panel were very critical of DWP who they said had bizarre reasoning and no evidence of the assumptions they made which were contrary to the reports I had sent in. He was awarded high rates of both mobility and daily living. I would ask for a reconsideration and go to appeal if needed.