Your health issues don't affect you because you have a driving license!

[NotreallyD]

My previous thread got deleted because the way I had phrased my opening post included ableist language. I didn't mean to say anything offensive and I am sorry. I wanted to create a new thread, because people had good advice, though I'm not sure it's allowed to remake my thread. I am a little confused.

I wanted to know if I was unreasonable applying for PIP, as DWP seems to think that I am.

I have ASD and ADHD, as well as co-morbid conditions as a result of those two disorders. As a result, I really struggle with day to day life, such as hygiene, food and engaging with people, as well as budgeting. In order to live a halfway decent life I have quite a few medical expenses, so I decided to try to apply for PIP to get some help with those.

I got help from an advocate to fill in my application and focus on the descriptors.

Well, I got my decision letter back, and the assessor (a physiotherapist) decided that I didn't struggle with any of my daily living activities, because...

"You maintain a driving license. Driving requires significant cognitive transferable skills. You have no diagnosed learning difficulty and you can use a phone.

Though you needed accomodations such as extra time for exams, a dictaphone, longer deadlines and support to get an education, you have a university degree. It is probable that you can manage your daily living activities. Therefore, I have decided you can manage these activities to an acceptable standard on the majority of days."

AIBU to think this is really unfair? Someone said I should blame Iain Duncan Smith, but the process is starting to make me doubt whether I actually have a health condition and who this benefit is supposed to be for. Today has been quite a rough day.

(a) safely;
(b) to an acceptable standard;
(c) repeatedly; and
(d) within a reasonable time period

This is what the Tribunal weigh up for all of the tasks the form concentrates on, which is why it is essential to describe the way you carry out each task in a way that reflects those four criteria.
Any evidence you have to support that is all to the good and should be included.

OP don't concentrate on the conditions you have, PIP is awarded for the inability to carry out the specified tasks they list in accordance with abcd above.

Do use the CAB free guide and I'd strongly recommend buying the Benefits and Work Guides because they all tell you HOW to write about the tasks.
www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/help-for-claimants click 'Find out how to join us'

PIP has those separate, but the assessor just lumped them all together saying that because I can read, I can also manage my finances and understand complex instructions in a normal time frame without help.
Yeah, that's a pretty standard assessor's response, they can be like that with everybody, that's why you need to appeal and particularly why you need to refute those inferences about because you can do one thing you can automatically do so many others. It's not true, but you have to be able to state your case as to why not with evidence from medical assessments and reports wherever you can.

You need to stop taking the assessor's comments as a personal insult and take all the emotion out of your responses and challenge what the assessor is wrong about, with as much evidence as you can.

Do submit a diary which shows how different things in the descriptors affect your everyday life.

Do NOT submit anything that claims every day is like your worst days, they are not stupid, they know that some days can be okay-ish and others can be dire, be honest about the frequency.

It is hard to get PIP, but it's not impossible, you need to prepare and have sound reasoning with evidence. Include your ASD and ADHD assessments, diagnosis and recommendations.

Duck said I passed my driving test in 2004, and then developed my disability in 2018/19. But I was turned down for PIP because I have a manual driving licence

Was that the assessor, or at Tribunal? There's a massive difference.

The Mandatory Reconsideration is done by the DWP who also made the original decision. Appeals at tribunal are heard by a completely separate organisation with no links to the DWP. They take a fresh look. It's well worth appealing. You will do better if you provide documentary evidence. If it's things like ASD or ADHD then even if it's quite old evidence, it might still be useful as these conditions don't tend to change much. Or get a new supportive letter from your GP or any other medical professional saying how your conditions affect you (preferably with respect to the activities in PIP).

And just for info, making a sandwich isn't sufficient for the preparing food descriptor. It is the ability to cook a simple meal for one from fresh ingredients e.g. cook some meat in a frying pan and chop and boil some veg in a pan on the hob.

Even if we lived in a utopia where applications were assessed fairly, if you're focusing on the same aspects you are here then it's not surprising you've been refused.

If your adhd makes you bad at budgeting, then having more money won't change anything, you'll just have a bigger budget to screw up. I have adhd so I'm not dismissing your problems, or suggesting it will be easy, but the only solution is to find coping strategies that work for you to manage your income, no matter what it is. I can also understand why even the most perfect system would not consider that justification for benefits.

WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll has a great point about HOW you answer the questions.

"They're also asked in such a way as to focus purely on possibility and not feasibility. For example, if they asked this question: "Can you walk more than 50m unaided", two people answering as follows would be treated exactly the same:

A. Yes, very easily indeed - in fact I walk 3 or 4km every day without any difficulty whatsoever. Conclusion: doesn't need PIP.

B. Yes, I can just about do that at a real struggle on a good day, but it will take me a very long time to do it and leave me exhausted and physically unable to do almost anything for the entire rest of the day. Conclusion: doesn't need PIP."

DWP only read the 'Yes' part of the response.

Response B would have been better if it was worded something like
No, because even on an occasional very good day, it would take me a very long time to do it and leave me exhausted and physically unable to do almost anything for the entire rest of the day.

My wording has not exaggerated the truth, it's just worded it in a way that shows how difficult this task is every time for that person.

@TrainspottingWelsh

Even if we lived in a utopia where applications were assessed fairly, if you're focusing on the same aspects you are here then it's not surprising you've been refused.

If your adhd makes you bad at budgeting, then having more money won't change anything, you'll just have a bigger budget to screw up. I have adhd so I'm not dismissing your problems, or suggesting it will be easy, but the only solution is to find coping strategies that work for you to manage your income, no matter what it is. I can also understand why even the most perfect system would not consider that justification for benefits.

I never went into some kind of argument about budgeting during the assessment, I just explained more on here. It's not that I am merely crap at budgeting. I can't cook safely or reliable, need prompting to eat and struggle with hygiene and engaging with people in person. None of these are negated because I know how to drive a car.

I will try and get someone to help me with the mandatory reconsideration; it's all very daunting.

Needing prompting to eat is quite a high bar to be awarded. It means someone not only has to bring you food, they have to sit by you and keep telling you to eat more, and that needs to be over 50% of the time.

You could get enough points for a standard award though from prompting to cook, prompting to wash, prompting to mix and help with complex budgeting. (Plus prompting to dress too if you need reminding to change clothes, or needing assistance or supervision to cook is more points than prompting).

Good luck. Try the local CAB as they can be good at form filling. But expect to go to tribunal as that's your best shot. They are mostly over the phone at the moment and the waiting time is a lot shorter than usual just now too.

What exactly are you requesting PIP for? How will more money help you to manage any of your difficulties?

I am asking because I think you need to think really carefully about this as you plan your appeal.

They may not be saying you don’t have difficulties, you clearly do. But they could be suggesting that PIP won’t actually do anything to help with these.

In the meantime someone with a university degree does have the capability to put in place some self supporting measures. You acknowledge you need reminders for hygiene and eating: make yourself a daily routine and pin it on the fridge. Set alarms on your phone to go off at the right time to prompt you.

Get yourself a very simple recipe book, one aimed at children or students may be useful. Make a meal plan where you are going to cook 2 meals in a week, the rest of the time use ready meals. The week after aim to cook 3 meals that week and build it up. Everyone can cook if you can read, you may just need to take it very slow, do one step of the recipe at a time and expect you will make mistakes at first.

I get PIP at the highest rates long term / ongoing. However my issues are lupus, Addison’s, asthma etc etc so very different from yours but I am a member of a pip support group and it’s amazing how many times they seem to use the whole driving thing against people- despite the fact the whole motability scheme is built on people being awarded high rate mobility and being able to use that towards a car! (As I do). It’s all such a bonkers system.

OP could you use reminder alarms to prompt you for hygiene & eating activities? Would that help?

Do you have a network or support system/support groups that can give you hints & tips?

You don't have to explain how the PIP money will help you manage those activities you have difficulty with.

I have to say I agree with the assessor.

Assuming that you are old enough to have completed the driving theory and hazard assessments test then I think using the fact you drive as a comparison tool is pretty fair.

As for your poor financial situation, giving you more money isn't going to help you with that. You need to find strategies to manage your money better. Could you discuss this issue with an ADHD coach, read books on ADHD that cover this, or if reading isn't your thing there are plenty of audiobooks and podcasts covering ADHD.

www.google.com/amp/s/www.additudemag.com/podcast-smart-money-strategies-adhd-adult-stephanie-sarkis/amp/

I can see where the assessor was coming from. You write extremely well for example. Bear in mind that assessor will see people who can perhaps only blink a left eyelid or use two fingers of their right hand.

You also managed to get through university which is a huge achievement. Who helped you prepare food during those years?

@Ritasueandbobtoo9

I can see where the assessor was coming from. You write extremely well for example. Bear in mind that assessor will see people who can perhaps only blink a left eyelid or use two fingers of their right hand.

You also managed to get through university which is a huge achievement. Who helped you prepare food during those years?

My partner, I've never lived independently.

It's not a case of 'how do I do this'. I can't do these things safely or reliably. Sometimes because of executive function impairments, sometimes because of psychological distress, sometimes because of side effects from my medication. You can get PIP for mental health impairments (such as depression etc) as well as physical or developmental conditions. My condition also varies, which is why I can talk pretty fine now, but also have months where I am not able to communicate or even get out of bed. It sucks, but it is what it is.

@Ritasueandbobtoo9

I can see where the assessor was coming from. You write extremely well for example. Bear in mind that assessor will see people who can perhaps only blink a left eyelid or use two fingers of their right hand.

You also managed to get through university which is a huge achievement. Who helped you prepare food during those years?

This shows you don’t understand pip.

Just because someone has a mental issue or neurological one rather than being able to move one eyelid doesn’t mean they are less entitled to Pip. It doesn’t work like that.

Autism is very complex- my son has autism and at 9 he could sit a driving theory test and pass because his specialist subject is road signs (has always been obsessed by them) and he’s taught himself Japanese but he can’t wipe his own bum and has no concept of time / day or night etc.

Op this group may be useful - there are files with information about applying for PIP with autism, if you message one of the admin they’ll point you in the right direction-

www.facebook.com/groups/1661571727483856/?ref=share

I was told by a doctor that I couldn't have ADHD because I have a drivers license and people with adhd can never drive I have ADHD. absolute shit show.

Appeal OP

I think they turn everyone down the first time.

I went from DLA to PIP, they decided I can walk because I drive a car.

I drive a car with £1500 of adaptions so I don't use my legs / feet.

Apparently I don't need help with medication because the pharmacy deliver my pills in a dosset box.

Everyone can cook if you can read, you may just need to take it very slow, do one step of the recipe at a time and expect you will make mistakes at first.

Not true.

I know how to cook, I have been known to cook 5 course dinners for friends, but over the last 2 years I have struggled by on take always and meals on wheels, It's just in the last 2 months I have been well enough, physically and mentally to cook.

Everyone can cook if you can read, you may just need to take it very slow, do one step of the recipe at a time and expect you will make mistakes at first.

Not true. My BIL was one of the best cooks I knew. He now has a nerological condition which means he can’t even safely cook fish fingers for the children let alone anything even vaguely complex. He has had many injuries along the way from trying to do so before he accepted it.

@Sirzy

Everyone can cook if you can read, you may just need to take it very slow, do one step of the recipe at a time and expect you will make mistakes at first.

Not true. My BIL was one of the best cooks I knew. He now has a nerological condition which means he can’t even safely cook fish fingers for the children let alone anything even vaguely complex. He has had many injuries along the way from trying to do so before he accepted it.

But can he read, process information and evaluate it well enough to gain a university degree?

I find it hard to believe someone who can get a degree (and hasn’t since had a decline of mental state) can’t follow a very basic recipe with some extra time and care.

You may need to fully script the process, including things like remembering to put over gloves on before opening the oven etc if safety is also a problem for the OP.

Yes to all 3 but none of them give him the physical ability to cook sadly. Your statements are very much over simplifying things

I am sorry but if your executive functions are affected to the level you are describing, the ability to drive and gain a degree appears to be at odds with that. You are also highly articulate which makes it harder for them to understand your difficulties. I am therefore not surprised your claim has been rejected.

no-one here can tell you whether the decision was fair or not. On paper, it is hard to understand how you would suffer from carrying out daily routine to the low level that triggers PIP when you can drive and managed to get a degree, but that's paper. You believe that you do struggle to the point of it meeting PIP criteria so either there is confusion with expectations and what triggers points for PIP or you haven't had the right support to complete your form and you failed to evidence your needs as required.

I think there's a lot of mixed messages here.

Have you spoken again to your advocate? Is it a friend or a "professional" advocate?

Obv we dont know your exact situation but as well as your advocate to help you fill it in, is there anyone who helps you on a daily or weekly basis who can also assist for the purposes of appeal? (A large majority of claims are refused and then the claimant wins though appeal or tribunal)

I really recommend the website Benefits and Work as mentioned above. If you sign up to the free newsletter they often offer 20% off the yearly membership (normally £20). However, there's a LOT of info there which may make it very overwhelmed. If you already have a professional advocate you may not need the site, but I'd it's a friend's assisting you I'd Def recommend.

I applied recently for my adult daughter who has ADHD, on waiting list for ASD assessment and also ME.
I found it very overwhelming but the website above gave me a lot of tips.

Did you have a phonecall assessment too? You can request the assessors notes from it and see if what they wrote was an accurate representation of what you said. Often,sadly, it's deliberately wrong. Unless it was recorded you may not have "proof" but you can deny anything that is not true as part of your appeal.

I'm sorry the process is so stressful X

@Bagelsandbrie it is exactly like that. It's really embarrassing for that reason too, because someone who is on the surface capable of complex things (like your son, I also have a thing for languages), could not possibly struggle with 'the basics'. I feel the whole idea about transferable skills is one of the things with autism I fail at. I have skills in very specific areas, but they don't transfer to other aspects of my life. I can't tell when I need a shower, or that I need to change my menstrual wear, or things like that. I wish I could, I really do. It's not as simple as 'just set an alarm'.

YANBU, PIP and similar around disability benefits are notoriously unfair and there have been some real corker of assessments, some including outright lies that I've seen. That alongside a real lack of understanding on many of these conditions even by some medical professionals, let alone the wider public, is a big part of why some give up getting help.

You've had great advice on mandatory reconsideration and getting advice on how to fill in to tick the boxes - it's kinda like a GCSE exam in that way where it's the precise language that matters, even when that can be a real struggle. Pretty much everyone I know who has tried to get disability related benefits has had to go through the appeals process at least once.

Some of the other advice and ideas has given me a sad chuckle. I've entirely been the person who flicks off phone reminders and been distracted enough to forget the reminder, or sat with a pill bottle on my lap or pills in my hand for an hour plus - or even a couple times in my mouth for way longer than they should be that it's a family joke that pills and water will just enter me by osmosis of sitting on me as everyone has seen me do that, and as someone who forgets to eat and struggles to process hunger cues, I can go all day without looking at my fridge. I frequently make to do lists and then put things on top of them and forget. How did I live alone - not well, I was quite underweight and would go for stretches of living on powdered butter sandwiches because powdered butter is room stable therefore I could carry it with me and whatever people brought me and I ended up just doing less and less because I couldn't trust myself to get places on time. I'm not the one to give advice as what generally helped me was 'living with other people' alongside 'keeping ready to eat food and drinks in arms reach' and 'making spreadsheet reminders that interest me, which means regularly remaking them, and pop up automatically when I start my laptop', though How to ADHD on youtube has a lot of good resources and tips, including on improving and managing finances after financial disasters which might help while you're going through the process.

Personally, I've chosen not to - I live with 2 other disabled adults, one who tried and it ground him down so badly - like you he went through times of thinking he must be faking if he has to go to appeals even though everyone who actually deals with him can see it and I'm not yet in a place where I can take that stress on top of everything else (even he chose to stop after getting into work), so we just bumble along together. It's not uncommon, a lot of people are making do without because the systems are so draining and many people just don't get that yes, many of us can do very adult things, and also do things like not remembering to eat or not always having full control of our limbs.