Your health issues don't affect you because you have a driving license!

[NotreallyD]

My previous thread got deleted because the way I had phrased my opening post included ableist language. I didn't mean to say anything offensive and I am sorry. I wanted to create a new thread, because people had good advice, though I'm not sure it's allowed to remake my thread. I am a little confused.

I wanted to know if I was unreasonable applying for PIP, as DWP seems to think that I am.

I have ASD and ADHD, as well as co-morbid conditions as a result of those two disorders. As a result, I really struggle with day to day life, such as hygiene, food and engaging with people, as well as budgeting. In order to live a halfway decent life I have quite a few medical expenses, so I decided to try to apply for PIP to get some help with those.

I got help from an advocate to fill in my application and focus on the descriptors.

Well, I got my decision letter back, and the assessor (a physiotherapist) decided that I didn't struggle with any of my daily living activities, because...

"You maintain a driving license. Driving requires significant cognitive transferable skills. You have no diagnosed learning difficulty and you can use a phone.

Though you needed accomodations such as extra time for exams, a dictaphone, longer deadlines and support to get an education, you have a university degree. It is probable that you can manage your daily living activities. Therefore, I have decided you can manage these activities to an acceptable standard on the majority of days."

AIBU to think this is really unfair? Someone said I should blame Iain Duncan Smith, but the process is starting to make me doubt whether I actually have a health condition and who this benefit is supposed to be for. Today has been quite a rough day.

Reading your later messages it seems that you've perhaps not explained yourself well enough (apart from the fact it seems that you practically need to be immobile to get PIP the first time round)

Has your condition deteriorated since passing your degree/driving test; did you explain that you're reliant on your partner for a lot of day to day self management? Did you explain the frequency of the days where you cant get out of bed and how you are affected on those days. What would you do if your partner didnt help?

What will PIP enable you to do that you cant do already?

I still think it is a fair assessment. The point that I was making that “disability” is a massive spectrum of ability and therefore someone presenting very well is viewed as such in comparison to a person with a very severe and substantial disability. By all means ask for a reassessment perhaps by an assessor with a mental health/ autism background as they would have a better understanding of your issues.

Op in reply to who helps her,
My partner, I've never lived independently.
It's not a case of 'how do I do this'. I can't do these things safely or reliably. Sometimes because of executive function impairments, sometimes because of psychological distress, sometimes because of side effects from my medication. You can get PIP for mental health impairments (such as depression etc) as well as physical or developmental conditions. My condition also varies, which is why I can talk pretty fine now, but also have months where I am not able to communicate or even get out of bed. It sucks, but it is what it is."

Did you fill in the forms showing how much help your partner has to provide for each descriptor for every task and part of a task?
because that alongside you never having lived independently should carry some weight as evidence.

It should have also been documented in the diary you submitted.

16 year old ds got this when we applied for PIP following DLA. Totally ignored all my outlining of the issues he has. His need was prompting (continuous) to do anything. Wash, dress, eat etc. Apparently, because he can play the guitar and attends grammar school (never mind the fact he had practically missed the whole year because of anxiety) he could do anything. He was awarded 0 points in original claim. 2 points I think with MR. 8 points and awarded PIP on appeal (following court meeting over phone) 1 and a half years after original decision. It's a vile, depressing system. Don't give up.

Driving is one of the daily activities that’s assessed, so I do see where they are coming from. But it has to be taken in the round with the impact on all other daily activities. You won’t meet the threshold if you struggle with just a few things, but conversely you shouldn’t NOT meet the threshold because you don’t struggle so much with one particular thing!

If the assessors point was true and you couldn’t be “sufficiently” disabled because you have a DL, then the motability scheme wouldn’t exist.

So basically… appeal it. My friend was also rejected but managed to get the PIP in the end.

Ritasueandbobtoo9
By all means ask for a reassessment perhaps by an assessor with a mental health/ autism background as they would have a better understanding of your issues

Yeah, like the DWP via ATOS and CAPITA will fall over themselves to do that

Have you any idea about the PIP system at all?
They don't do re-assessments as part of the process and they don't let you choose who assesses you because they may be more understanding of your condition.

Much of the problem with F2F assessments is that the people doing them have no idea how a diagnosed condition MAY affect someone.
Assessors are recruited from medical backgrounds and are qualified nurses, physios etc. specialists in their own field. They are in no way expected to know or taught about all the presentations of disability.

Definitely appeal!

I did my mums recently & took every point in turn & stated why I didn't agree with their assessment of her abilities - making sure to also confirm the assessments I agreed with.

She had her updated award letter through within 4 weeks & the back payment in her bank the day the letter arrived.

She also maintains a drivers license (as in she has one & it's valid) but I wouldn't let her anywhere near a car!

Unfortunately the PIP application form, and the assessment itself is pretty extensively tailored to physical disability, not mental disability - and for this reason I'd be really surprised if anyone with mental disability could gain PIP on first assessment for this reason. (I helped a friend who was on DLA for the past 40 years get hers but had to get mandatory reconsideration where they actually read and took into account GPs letter. At the assessment, she came over as very well spoken and articulate (highly educated, degree etc before being ill) and also as she tries to please everyone she answered what she thought they wanted to hear not how things actually were.

I'd advise to read the application form carefully and assess the areas you need help with as applied to what they are asking on the form and calculate whether you actually qualify for any points on that basis and appeal. If possible get a GP letter to assist, and see if you can find any other professionals you have used in the past to write how your conditions affect you in day to day living.

If you cannot get PIP it might be worth seeing if you can get help from any local charities particularly any related to your conditions, and especially with regard to your specifics of money management/budgeting.

For clarity, ADHD and ASD are not 'mental disabilities'

www.additudemag.com/what-is-adhd-symptoms-causes-treatments/
Attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) is a neurological disorder that impacts the parts of the brain that help us plan, focus on, and execute tasks.

www.autism.org.uk/advice-and-guidance/what-is-autism
Autism is a lifelong developmental disability which affects how people communicate and interact with the world.

BlankTimes

For clarity, ADHD and ASD are not 'mental disabilities'

Yes, but OP is saying that she has depression and can stay in bed for months, which would suggest the need for mental health services.

Also the OP does not seem to have provided any evidence of any diagnosis to the assessor so understandably the evidence is not there to back up what she is experiencing.

@Ritasueandbobtoo9

BlankTimes

For clarity, ADHD and ASD are not 'mental disabilities'

Yes, but OP is saying that she has depression and can stay in bed for months, which would suggest the need for mental health services.

Also the OP does not seem to have provided any evidence of any diagnosis to the assessor so understandably the evidence is not there to back up what she is experiencing.

I have provided those things, PIP assessors don't care about diagnoses, unless they want to use it against you. It's all about the descriptors.

Hi OP

I'd ask for a Mandatory Reconsideration and then be prepared to takemit too tribuanal. In the meantime try and gather evidence which proves what you are saying,

My son went to PIP at 16 as he has autism and ADHD. He also has moderate learning difficultoes.

Expamples of evidence I sent was

Letters from parrdiatrician
His school EHCP
Photos of his bedroom after a week of no help with tidying.
Photos of the hole he kicked in the bedroom wall
Photo of facial bruising caused by him whacking his head on the wall.

He gets enhanced rate at Care and Mobility although once he can make journeys by himself and plan them then he will lose the mobility part...that's okay though as it will be a sign of good progress .

I think executive function issues as you describe can be quite hard to prove but if you have to employ a cleaner as you can't keep your home clean and tidy any other way then that would be proof. It might be worth asking social services to do an assessment of your needs (although they may refuse) which would give you proof

Photos of bank statements and any CCJs might help.

If you employ an ADHD coach they might be able to help.

I have ADHD/Autism myself (although I don't claim PIP) and I try to put things in place to help myself with carting degrees of success and failure.

It's not easy.

I have provided those things, PIP assessors don't care about diagnoses, unless they want to use it against you. It's all about the descriptors

The assessors don't take much notice of your reports etc. MR tend to uphold the assessors BUT Tribunal read every word you submit AND they are impartial, not allied to DWP in any way.

It's important you know that so you can see the need to persevere to Tribunal.

Just call to log mandatory reconsideration request within 30days of their decision letter and avoid taking MR the telephone process they'll offer and say you'll send in writing. Maybe the advisor can go through the assessor report to see what crap they've spouted and help format letter to challenge decision.

Its likely DWP will uphold the decision will but you can then appeal, from experience the tribunal panel are much fairer and it's something like 79% that are awarded in claiments favour now. Which just shows how crap the original decisions were, DWP have have also had to pay out loads from where they misinterpreted the law so could avoid giving points so I personally wouldn't put any stock on their decisions.

The assessor my friend had made up whole narratives of how they could manage xyz in their report, which we're never said (call recorded).

I thought the written descriptor is simple or complex information, so imagine car driving would fall under simple signs/symbols plus many people use sat nav. I'd see complex would be more like a letter and yes that could take someone multiple times to understand what they've read.

There's a useful forum on here for asking questions but you may find it helpful to look through similar topic posts to realise that your not alone and it's common.
www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/

I work alongside a benefits specialist and they always warn people that PIP is often turned down in the first instance regardless of the merits of the application and to expect to have to ask for a mandatory reconsideration and then appeal.

Definitely ask for the reconsideration and get professional support with this. I'd also expect to have to appeal and not take that as a sign of whether you qualify or not.

I would say maybe 5% or 10% at most go though from my colleagues caseload and with no rhyme or reason when you look at the cases declined/approced. In fact most of the declined ones clearly have higher need than the rejected ones.

It's pretty much part of the application process at the moment. They hope people will give up and not bother appealing.

Good luck OP.

Oh I meant the welfare advisor that helped with the forms not DWP advisor if not clear

How have you been evidencing what you are saying? Always write far more than you think! Are you giving examples? For PIP, it’s not enough to say why you can’t care for your own personal hygiene. Be much more explanatory. If you get help - what does the person do? How do they help? How long does it take? Explain what would happen if you didn’t have this help. Always draw it back to your own needs.

An example……

”Due to my low mood, I don’t motivate myself to have a shower. If nobody was there, I would not wash at all. I need my wife to tell me to shower and to be present when I shower. Due to spine damage following the road traffic collision in 2017 I mentioned, I cannot bend. I need practical help with washing my lower body. Even if I sit on a stool, I am too weak to wash the lower half of my body. My wife needs to physically wash my lower body and also to dry me when I get out of the shower.”

@Haenow

How have you been evidencing what you are saying? Always write far more than you think! Are you giving examples? For PIP, it’s not enough to say why you can’t care for your own personal hygiene. Be much more explanatory. If you get help - what does the person do? How do they help? How long does it take? Explain what would happen if you didn’t have this help. Always draw it back to your own needs.

An example……

”Due to my low mood, I don’t motivate myself to have a shower. If nobody was there, I would not wash at all. I need my wife to tell me to shower and to be present when I shower. Due to spine damage following the road traffic collision in 2017 I mentioned, I cannot bend. I need practical help with washing my lower body. Even if I sit on a stool, I am too weak to wash the lower half of my body. My wife needs to physically wash my lower body and also to dry me when I get out of the shower.”

Thank you, that's very helpful!

Response B would have been better if it was worded something like
No, because even on an occasional very good day, it would take me a very long time to do it and leave me exhausted and physically unable to do almost anything for the entire rest of the day.

My wording has not exaggerated the truth, it's just worded it in a way that shows how difficult this task is every time for that person.

Oh, absolutely, if the system was run by compassionate people who were encouraged to be human, consider the applicant's circumstances based on need and not incentivised to reject as many claims as possible. Unfortunately, the whole system is set up to be a tick-box exercise and deliberately designed to make some of the most vulnerable people in society fail. It's evil.

It's also yet one more proof among many that, no matter how much the people in charge claim to understand and care about people suffering with MH conditions, they really, truly, honestly do not.

*bold fail