How do farmers reconcile themselves to the volumes of animals they send to slaughter over the course of their lifetimes?

[Empanadas]

Hi, this is something I’ve always wondered. However, I was watching that Netflix series about Prince Charles and the Duchy of Cornwall and there was a farmer showing a whole barn of cattle he has obviously reared from birth, but quite blithely saying, “oh they'll all be off next week.”

AIBU to think being a cattle / sheep / chicken farmer takes a certain type of person and to wonder how they deal with their conscience in this depressing business?

@OrangeRug

Simple - they don't actually give a shit about the animals. Just like the consumers who pay for these animals to be slaughtered all the while virtue signalling about abandoned cats and dogs in hot cars.

Another incredibly offensive and ignorant post.

I'm still waiting for the OP to tell me what happens to the cows, pigs, sheep, ducks, geese, chickens, mink etc when we stop eating them - and if that's a 'kinder’ option

They all go to live on nature reserves like the one OP goes to, where they’re cuddled daily and treated in a thoroughly anthropomorphic fashion. Of course, they’re never ever put down, even on welfare grounds, because that would be “cruel”.

@Letsgetreadytocrumble

Yes, I have an agenda where nonhuman animals are treated with respect and dignity, and not exploited or enslaved for human desires. Good catch, you got me there ;)

Ah the luxury beliefs of vegans! Where one has such easy access to such an abundance of food that they can take moral high ground about 'not exploiting animals for human desires'.

Humans have 'exploited' animals for millenia - it's how you came to be on Mumsnet in 2021, talking about how awful it is to exploit animals

But I think some people on here have valid points. The journey the human race took to get to where it is doesn't have to be the future journey. And it has nothing to with luxury beliefs. If people with 'luxury beliefs' were scoffed at the human race would never have progressed.

I don't think the human race can continue doing what it is doing today. Look at the health of the UK. Consider the current environmental trajectory.

All these comments about poorer nations, avocado's, etc etc. These are easy arguments that do nothing for progress as people making these points are stuck in the now and what is, their views are constrained.

I think veganism(I'm not) , and all the other isms are only the very start of a journey where by the human race significantly reduces their consumption of meat. Yes world hunger needs to be tackled, yes environmental considerations need to be understood for all the scenarios, but I can't see anything positive coming from eating animal produce at the rate we continue to do especially as the human race expands.

All humans feed, all humans healthy, all animals treated humanely and with respect could be possibility if that's what people truly wanted. People however I don't think, are that bothered, or find it too hard to solve. That's why I think the clean energy targets won't be hit, because the public doesn't want to change their behaviour.

@BrightYellowDaffodil

I'm still waiting for the OP to tell me what happens to the cows, pigs, sheep, ducks, geese, chickens, mink etc when we stop eating them - and if that's a 'kinder’ option

They all go to live on nature reserves like the one OP goes to, where they’re cuddled daily and treated in a thoroughly anthropomorphic fashion. Of course, they’re never ever put down, even on welfare grounds, because that would be “cruel”.

until we only see them in zoos because they become so rare? - oh no wait zoos are cruel to - so what - all these lovely animals just die out?

I mean it's not like farmers are involved in rare breed conservation or anything

@MozambiqueHere

Where is the land going to come from to grow all of the crops to feed everyone if we all give up meat? You can fill a field with cows and it's going to fill a lot more bellies than filling it with cauliflowers

You need a lot of fields to feed all those cows. A LOT of fields. Which is why a non-meat diet requires significantly less land than one that includes meat.

How many acres of typical British upland permanent pasture do you think it takes to hold 80 cows and calves (so 160 animals) and 1000 sheep?

How many cauliflowers fo you think you could grow on the same amount of land in a year.

It's a trick question by the way.

yeah because the Yorkshire Dales and moors are perfect for growing veg - wild like - all over the land

@ghostyslovesheets

yeah because the Yorkshire Dales and moors are perfect for growing veg - wild like - all over the land

That's not really the point. The point is only that the suggestion that there wouldn't be enough land to feed people if they stopped eating meat is patently false.

only if one assumes the land currently used for animal farming can simply be converted for use for crop production - which is can't

@Femme99

It’s funny how people see their meat eating under attack and then will start attacking those that oppose it by calling them ‘tedious bores!’ Says everything I need to know about them.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=LUllIT8rCj4

Joaquin Phoenix has it to a ‘T’. Vegan and lifelong animal lover.

In the first five pages of this thread, farmers (some of whom are on the thread) have been accused of not seeing the animals they rear as having any intrinsic rights or worth beyond financial, of exploiting and enslaving their animals, not giving a shit about their animals, that they don't see them as living, breathing, individual beings, are thoughtless and haven’t considered whether their animals might be afraid, and that they are in the business of death.

So much hyperbole regarding a way of life of which those making the accusations are clearly very ignorant is indeed very tedious.

Recently I discovered some “animal rights activists” had sat on pictures, videos and evidence of animal suffering for five years in order to create the maximum shock effect.

My suspicion is that few of them genuinely care about animals. It seems more likely they enjoy the sense of moral superiority they feel as they try to shut down an industry they despise.

Anyone who genuinely loved animals would not leave them to suffer for five years, but would have alerted the authorities as they went along.

If you really care about animals, accept the meat industry exists and is going to continue for the foreseeable future. Campaign for better welfare within the industry, however much you despise it, as that is the only way real progress will be made.

If you want people to join you in veganism or vegetarianism, then persuasion works much better than insults, shock tactics, unrealistic anthropomorphism and hyperbole.

What's patently false? The growing capabilities of all agricultural land in the UK?

@ghostyslovesheets

only if one assumes the land currently used for animal farming can simply be converted for use for crop production - which is can't

Or you convert the land used for animal feed production to human feed production? And humans require less feed, even if they stop eating animals.

@TheHateIsNotGood

What's patently false? The growing capabilities of all agricultural land in the UK?

No... The suggestion that there wouldn't be enough land to feed people if they stopped eating meat.

Which is exactly what I said

Sorry haven’t really read the last hours worth as I was out.

The fact is, the meat production industry as it exists in the world today is obscene. Far too many animals are being slaughtered - far far more than we need or could ever consume. It’s a disgrace. So much unnecessary suffering. Rainforests being felled for grazing land, just because it’s profitable (and before the avocado-mob pipe up, yes I know). Battery farming. Live animal transportation. As humans, what we are doing is utterly disgusting. Cheap mass-produced meat so people can stuff their faces in KFC or Mc Donald’s or some crap packaged sandwiches or ready meals. Obesity is on the rise and all associated health risks because we just consume so much more meat than we supposed to or need. It’s just obscene..

To me having to eat lab grown meat is a horrifying prospect. For the big food companies it is a wet dream though. Imagine all those frankenfoods you could create and sell to the well meaning but ignorant masses.

Meat isn't the cause of western world health problems. Highly processed lab foods and seed oils are the reason why we are so sick and so is the vast amount of sugar we now consume.

That's not really the point. The point is only that the suggestion that there wouldn't be enough land to feed people if they stopped eating meat is patently false.

That is completely the point. Currently livestock graze over huge amounts of land in the UK that is at this time unsuitable for growing crops on. Mostly vast areas of moorland, fells, peat bogs etc.

They do this alongside groundnesting birds, insects, hares, deer, foxes, rabbits, snakes, mice, voles, geese, badgers, moles, frogs, toads, butterflies, moths, beetles, stoats, crayfish etc.

If in La la vegan land where all the land currently grazed by livestock is given over to vegetable growing most of this land would need to be ploughed, drained, sprayed, fertilised with artificial fertilisers, and heavily pest controlled. Trees and hedges would need to be felled to allow tractor machinery to pass systematically.

What happens to all of the animals that were happily coexisting alongside livestock previously? Do they go to the sanctuaries too?

How long do you think the soil will continue to be productive without the nutrients from animal manure and urine going back into it?

Personally, I’ve no interest in lab-produced meat or so-called “meat-substitutes.” If you don’t eat meat, why would you need a substitute? Weird stuff as far as I’m concerned.

Night all, I'm off to eat some cabbage broth with some porridge for pudding. And I'm not sharing, come the vegan acopalypse, there'll be hordes of starving people or a planet choked with transport fumes due to massive importation of plant-based materiels.

It's like Day of the Triffids - taken over by wierd Leeks.

@RedHotChiliChips

To me having to eat lab grown meat is a horrifying prospect. For the big food companies it is a wet dream though. Imagine all those frankenfoods you could create and sell to the well meaning but ignorant masses.

Meat isn't the cause of western world health problems. Highly processed lab foods and seed oils are the reason why we are so sick and so is the vast amount of sugar we now consume.

A lot of people are wary of it but once it becomes cheaper than livestock, the marketing industry will go into overdrive and I'd imagine that the people who continue to refuse it long-term will be a minority. Within a generation that will turn into a very small minority.

We don’t have enough land to convert to all-arable, and the soil without animal produce (manure) wouldn’t support it never mind the weather. It would also require intense farming practices ie non organic and very heavily reliant on chemicals. Making the UK farm vegan isn’t possible.

Waste of time seeing as you’re coming in late and not reading the whole thread where we’ve already covered these points.

@Empanadas

Personally, I’ve no interest in lab-produced meat or so-called “meat-substitutes.” If you don’t eat meat, why would you need a substitute? Weird stuff as far as I’m concerned.

Firstly, some people who don't eat meat still would if there was a cruelty-free version (aka lab-grown meat).

Secondly, lab-grown meat won't be aimed primarily at people who don't eat meat. It's aimed at people who DO eat meat.

@Backstreetsbackalrightdadada

We don’t have enough land to convert to all-arable, and the soil without animal produce (manure) wouldn’t support it never mind the weather. It would also require intense farming practices ie non organic and very heavily reliant on chemicals. Making the UK farm vegan isn’t possible.

Waste of time seeing as you’re coming in late and not reading the whole thread where we’ve already covered these points.

Who said anything about converting all uk pasture to arable? Not me.

The animals were only produced to make food.

@Empanadas You can remedy all your problems by eating local British produce. Animals move only short distances. Battery farming is illegal in the U.K. No rainforests felled.

“Secondly, lab-grown meat won't be aimed primarily at people who don't eat meat. It's aimed at people who DO eat meat.”

Yes very true. If it means the meat industry will decline as people make alternative choices, I’m all for it.

@Scrowy

I'm a farmer - there are many of us on mumsnet and I'm sure all of them will be just as upset as I am at reading this.

We have 80 suckler cows with around 70 calves, 60 of last years young stock and 30 bought in male dairy calves

1000ish sheep, at this time of year we also have around 1800 lambs.

Every last one of them is cared for.

We give them the best life we can while they are with us, which varies depending on what breed/sex they are, we feel sad when they leave us and we enjoy eating the good quality food that comes as a result of our and other farmers hard work.

We see life and death upfront, every new life is a joy, every untimely loss is a sadness. All of it is a privilege.

You don't have to go far to find any number of programmes on tv which show the dedication of farmers to their animals if you have no other access to working farm environments.

What about the fact that so many slaughterhouses have been covertly filmed abusing the animals in such horrendous ways? They may have been given a good life but they don't get a good death. And how can you humanely kill an animal that is healthy and doesn't want to die...