How do farmers reconcile themselves to the volumes of animals they send to slaughter over the course of their lifetimes?

[Empanadas]

Hi, this is something I’ve always wondered. However, I was watching that Netflix series about Prince Charles and the Duchy of Cornwall and there was a farmer showing a whole barn of cattle he has obviously reared from birth, but quite blithely saying, “oh they'll all be off next week.”

AIBU to think being a cattle / sheep / chicken farmer takes a certain type of person and to wonder how they deal with their conscience in this depressing business?

Vegans are hardly likely to go into farming are they?

@Empanadas

And no, I hold my hands up that I have never been to a farm or talked to a real farmer. I wouldn’t want to, I’m sorry.

I understand people say we are supposed to eat meat and this is a necessary evil. I accept that is their prerogative and I understand them to some extent. I just don’t feel the same, obviously.

But I didn’t come on to hear whatever about global warming and air miles and soya and whatever. I didn’t actually come on to discuss veganism either. Quite happy to start a thread on any of those, but this is not it.

It was a specific question about how farmers reconcile sending animals to slaughter? Just on a basic human or very broad spiritual level (not necessarily religious) do you ever doubt the morality of what you do?

So you have already been judge and jury to a cohort of people without ever having met a single representative!

And you are dismissive of any perspective other than your own, even when your read them as a direct response to your own posts.

And you are ignoring the answers you have already had.

OK! That's most 'good faith' post I have read in a while!

I am not from the U.K. and just because I happen to live in London does not mean I live any more in a bubble than anyone else. I could say some people need to get out of their “we are custodians of the land” bubble,” by that logic. We all approach issues through our respective lenses.

I think that's fine until you start in on people you admittedly have no experience of (and apparently can't be bothered to research independently).

Helping you to see outside your bubble should first and foremost be your own job.

@ChangePart1

They don't see them as living, breathing, individual beings. They certainly don't see them as having any intrinsic rights or worth beyond financial.

To them it's the same as if they were growing crops and then sending them off to distributers. They don't see themselves as having anything to come to terms with or reconcile themselves to.

And I agree, it definitely takes a certain sort of person. But I think it takes a certain sort of person to be able to eat animal products, work in an abattoir, or carry out animal testing too.

Do you mean the majority of the human race? Pretty sure that's who eats animal products. They must all be a special kind of person 😆

@ChangePart1

They don't see them as living, breathing, individual beings. They certainly don't see them as having any intrinsic rights or worth beyond financial.

To them it's the same as if they were growing crops and then sending them off to distributers. They don't see themselves as having anything to come to terms with or reconcile themselves to.

And I agree, it definitely takes a certain sort of person. But I think it takes a certain sort of person to be able to eat animal products, work in an abattoir, or carry out animal testing too.

Also, how many farmers have you met and talked to? I'm guessing not too many...

Again, 100% realise this is overly simplistic and not likely to happen in the short-term, but for cattle farmers who own land, could they not let a percentage go wild (I heard there’s some subsidies for this now)? Could you not sterilise your cattle to keep the population to a certain size and just keep cows for grazing the land and milk maybe? Sheep for wool? Then get another job if necessary? If you live in a very rural area where there’s not many other work opportunities, do something online?

I think meat is a declining industry anyway (hopefully), so in a way, this would just be getting ahead of the curve?

I don’t need to go to a farm to know that millions of animals are being slaughtered. Talking to those involved will not change the reality of what happens.

@Empanadas

Again, 100% realise this is overly simplistic and not likely to happen in the short-term, but for cattle farmers who own land, could they not let a percentage go wild (I heard there’s some subsidies for this now)? Could you not sterilise your cattle to keep the population to a certain size and just keep cows for grazing the land and milk maybe? Sheep for wool? Then get another job if necessary? If you live in a very rural area where there’s not many other work opportunities, do something online?

I think meat is a declining industry anyway (hopefully), so in a way, this would just be getting ahead of the curve?

What will you eat when this "declining industry" disappears? Veg from your own garden?!

[quote kikisparks]@derxa I imagine they won’t be trying to grow that selection on your fields so probably won’t need the luck.[/quote]
So you'll just have to put up with 'executive houses' being built on my fields then The local societies which use my fields as parking will have to go whistle. The vets, feed merchants, fencers, contractors, equipment manufacturers that I do business with can go whistle. My shepherd who keeps horses here can go whistle. The guy who keeps his horse here can go whistle. His father who comes up here to muck out and whose recovery from a bad stroke has been helped by that can go whistle. Etc etc etc

Empanadas but one of these “bubbles” (assuming us farmers don’t mix) has a lifetime’s knowledge of farming and is answering your queries, and yes they are custodians of the land they’re on/ manage just as you are a custodian of any land you are on/ manage.

It’d be really cool to know what you take on as a role in production - it you have a specialism in eg urban farming or community grown crops, or if you have a strategy in your role as a consumer eg lobbying supermarkets, cafes, MPs about your concerns.

Currently I don’t now know what you want that we haven’t already answered? Let us know!

@achainisonlyasstrong hormone use is illegal in farming in Britain. You’ll have to try again. As is ‘battery farming’ which everyone keeps talking about.

@Empanadas Britain would be worse off without beef farming. You clearly have no idea how agriculture works. Ruminant animals grazing forage crop organically replenishes soil, reduces soil erosion, increases biodiversity. You genuinely have no idea what you are talking about.

@Empanadas

Again, 100% realise this is overly simplistic and not likely to happen in the short-term, but for cattle farmers who own land, could they not let a percentage go wild (I heard there’s some subsidies for this now)? Could you not sterilise your cattle to keep the population to a certain size and just keep cows for grazing the land and milk maybe? Sheep for wool? Then get another job if necessary? If you live in a very rural area where there’s not many other work opportunities, do something online?

I think meat is a declining industry anyway (hopefully), so in a way, this would just be getting ahead of the curve?

Wool costs money to produce (that is - it costs more to get it off the sheep than it sells for)

Again, 100% realise this is overly simplistic and not likely to happen in the short-term in all honesty if anyone had the answer to this it’d already have happened :) I don’t know… As long as consumers will pay for the produce, there will be farmers who sell it. I guess charities / individuals like you could always buy the animals to save them? I know someone who did with battery hens, they’re lovely! But ultimately a meat free market = no animals. That’d include all breeds, they wouldn’t be needed/ fit in a “vegan” farming world where it’s arable only - that’d be very intensive/ mechanised farming.

Arable farming has changed SO much too, it’s really mechanised. Ultimately millions would lose their jobs, skills lost for good too. Is it secure to have hi tech farming - look at the hacking they just had in the US, no decent food security in that.

There might be an answer but I don’t know what it is that’s ethical/ affordable/ green

@Empanadas

Again, 100% realise this is overly simplistic and not likely to happen in the short-term, but for cattle farmers who own land, could they not let a percentage go wild (I heard there’s some subsidies for this now)? Could you not sterilise your cattle to keep the population to a certain size and just keep cows for grazing the land and milk maybe? Sheep for wool? Then get another job if necessary? If you live in a very rural area where there’s not many other work opportunities, do something online?

I think meat is a declining industry anyway (hopefully), so in a way, this would just be getting ahead of the curve?

Then get another job if necessary? If you live in a very rural area where there’s not many other work opportunities, do something online?

This combined with your ridiculously emotive language (death on the hillside, trading in blood) really makes me think you're on a wind up...

Sure lots of farmers are about to start selling personalised mugs on Etsy on your advice.

@Backstreetsbackalrightdadada I’m not sure how it’s going, there are various trials I have read about most of which only seem to have started a year or two ago and I think the grow green project has only been going for a couple of years as well so I wouldn’t expect results for a while yet.

That being said, as I explained above, the science suggests that we need to think beyond just local when it comes to environmental goals.

Per one of the peer reviewed articles I linked to above, at a global level excluding animal products would reduce food’s land use by 3.1 (2.8 to 3.3) billion ha (a 76% reduction), including a 19% reduction in arable land.

A study based on European consumption linked above found that consuming local animal products was worse environmentally than a plant based diet. We can eat a plant based diet that involves imports and still be doing better environmentally than someone who consumes local animal products because most emissions are generated at the production rather than the transport stage.

Empanadas Could you not sterilise your cattle to keep the population to a certain size and just keep cows for grazing the land and milk maybe?

Er no.....cows need to produce calves to produce milk.......

The OP in the thread is so ignorant I can’t even be bothered.

@Empanadas I'm genuinely interested to know if you have ever watched any of the farming media that is out there before forming your opinion on farmers?

I highly recommend This Farming Life and Our Yorkshire Farm as starting points. Real people, real farmers, the farming community feel they are good representations of the industry.

I would challenge anyone to watch either of those shows and come to the conclusion that farmers don't care about their animals.

Especially Raymond and Effie from series 3

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p0704cxs

Farmer drives his expensive and vital quadbike deep into a river to save a sheep that's worth around £150.

@Empanadas

Again, 100% realise this is overly simplistic and not likely to happen in the short-term, but for cattle farmers who own land, could they not let a percentage go wild (I heard there’s some subsidies for this now)? Could you not sterilise your cattle to keep the population to a certain size and just keep cows for grazing the land and milk maybe? Sheep for wool? Then get another job if necessary? If you live in a very rural area where there’s not many other work opportunities, do something online?

I think meat is a declining industry anyway (hopefully), so in a way, this would just be getting ahead of the curve?

Cattle farmers who own land? Many are tenants

Going wild? I am assuming you mean the land not the cattle. Much is being done to promote that. Farmers have long been the custodians of the land, rewilded, stonewalled, set aside etc

Sterilise cattle? And still get milk? My oh my!

Sheep for wool? Google the price of a fleece, even of a rare breed.

Online work? Oh dear, clueless! Rural areas = shit infrastructure, often weak and/or intermittent signal.

Actually all of that has made me change my mind. Not clueless. Nobody could be that clueless. Utterly goady.

Well done you!

I mean there was a time when people would have been up in arms about the prospect of banning fur farms in the U.K. But that happened. Those who would have been fur farmers had to do something else and a good thing too.

Is it that much of a stretch to think that cattle farming, if not wound down completely, could be significantly reduced in the future?

I also don’t understand why cat food is produced in chicken, beef or lamb varieties. No doubt this is because it’s cheap due to overproduction? What cat eats a cow in the wild fgs?

“Farmer drives his expensive and vital quadbike deep into a river to save a sheep that's worth around £150.”

Why mention that the sheep is “worth £150?” He either wants to save the sheep or he doesn’t.

@kikisparks a family member farms about 50ac of land full time in an organic, vegan manner. They are young and fortunate enough to never need to work. It just about feeds her and her husband. They still needs to do a monthly shop. It isn’t feasible on a large scale to live like this, they live a beautifully idealistic life but how many people can afford to never work and just farm their land. Without chemical or animal inputs yields are significantly lower than what is needed to feed the country.

@Empanadas

I mean there was a time when people would have been up in arms about the prospect of banning fur farms in the U.K. But that happened. Those who would have been fur farmers had to do something else and a good thing too.

Is it that much of a stretch to think that cattle farming, if not wound down completely, could be significantly reduced in the future?

I also don’t understand why cat food is produced in chicken, beef or lamb varieties. No doubt this is because it’s cheap due to overproduction? What cat eats a cow in the wild fgs?

That might be a pipe dream of yours but the difference is that fur was a small market compared to meat. People like to eat it. They have done for many thousands of years. NOTHING is going to stop that no matter how many vegans stamp their feeties and try to force everyone to behave as they do. That sort of thing doesn't go over very well in humanity.

Thanks for the reminder, my cat hasn't had her daily chicken Dreamies.

A lion would probably eat a cow, maybe you would prefer we made domestic cat food out of ground up blue tits and sparrows?