To think I should be allowed to flex my working hours for school hols?

[Lucy788]

To give context:
Ds started reception in September. There was no wraparound on and as I have been WFH my boss agreed I could start work half an hour later at 9am to drop him off. I do this 4 x days a week and make up the 2hrs 1 evening.
This has worked well throughout - he has said so himself and let me continue to do this 2 days a week when breakfast club opened in Nov.
As of start of August this year our company are due to move back to original working eg. Working from the office and regular working patterns.
This obviously coincides with Summer holidays. Today I discussed with my boss that for the first 3wks in Aug I'd like to continue exactly as I am as the holiday club he will attend opens at 8.30 and he will be going 2 x days a week. So I will need to make up an extra hour a week.
He basically told me that unfortunately flexi time will have ended by then and therefore I can't!
I am kind of in disbelief. I'm more than happy as of Sept when back to school to return to normal working pattern, but I've done this since September and it has caused absolutely no issues whatsoever.
I explained to him that my alternative is to take unpaid leave 2 x days a week for 3 weeks as I will have no childcare and he basically sent me away and said he will think about it and let me know next Thursday if im allowed.
Aibu to be pissed off about this!?

It's a computer based roll and I work alone, eg. Me not being there at 8.30am doesn't impact anybody and I've demonstrated that for months.

.Your company has clearly sent out an edict that from August, everyone just does what it says in their contract

In which case I hope that their employees react by being similarly inflexible when it comes to working beyond their their contracted hours and roles. Employers cannot have it both ways if they want to retain good staff.

But what happens with every other school
Holiday? This isn't going to juts ne an issue for three weeks

I'd make it quite clear that this would be the end of any unpaid overtime/meetings on your part. In fact, say that you are now unable to be flexible in August as planned. At all.
I left a job after 13 years in the NHS because of an enforced change in working hours which meant childcare was impossible. I was told I had six months to find a solution. I couldn't have found one in six years! So I left.
Can your DH not amend his hours temporarily. Are neither of you entitled to carers leave?

If you've presented the matter as you have here, I can understand why he would be hesitating. It's not clear when you need this for 3 weeks only. If the issue is the time the club opens, this will potentially be an issue every holidays days that you work. If he says yes now, it sets precedence, and then potentially causes issues if other staff have similar issues.

I suspect if he knew for sure it was only a one off, he'd be fine, it's the concern that you might ask the same everytime and use the same argument that it was agreed before, so why not that time.

My old employer refused flexibility but only if the employee wanted it. If they needed overtime or something it was assumed we’d work. so much so that when I handed in my notice and was told no paid overtime they were shocked and annoyed when I left at 5 every day and left the rest of them to deal with things. Pointed out their no paid overtime rule and that I didn’t work for free.

Will you need this every school holiday though? As I presume that is why you are being told no as they don't want to have this conversation or expectation every couple of months when your child isn't at school.

@StacysMomMandyJessiesEx

What were your original plans to cover school holidays and drop offs , when you first took the job op?

What were the plans for the half term breaks and 2 weeks at Christmas and Easter?

I have worked here 9 years so I didnt have children. He only started school in September and me and dh between us have used holidays to cover many the school hols plus my NWD. Hes used this holiday club since September without issue as I've been able to flex and start at 9am. For as long as I've known people have always been able to do this pre covid, despite us not having a formal written flexibile working policy

To reiterate, it depends who your manager is as to whether they agree it. Some of the female bosses have children flex themselves and have no issues with their teams doing it. My boss is a male in his late 20s with no children and unfortunately doesn't seem to be on the same page.

Its so disappointing how many people think this is ok. I'm mid 40s so worked for approx 25 years in a variety of companies public and private sector, can't think of one them that would have turned this request down, it doesn't affect your work, doesn't affect your team but would help retain a valued member of staff. Its an absolutely no brainer to approve this.

Flexi working is the norm in many places so I'm not sure why it's a big deal.

@Lucy788 your child must be 4 years old. You must have known you needed childcare. You haven't answered the question what your plans were. You can't cover 13 weeks holiday a year on a normal annual leave allocation.

As the flexibility wouldn’t impact colleagues I don’t understand why your manager is being so rigid about this, especially as it’s only on a temporary basis!

The only issue the company as a whole might have is if other departments haven’t been granted any flexibility, other than that it makes no sense other than your manager flexing their managerial ‘power’?

I’ve had to make alternative arrangements for the next few weeks and need to leave early, using hours from holiday entitlement to cover those hours. As I’ve been super flexible on the run up to this request my manager has agreed, which I’m thankful for, if he hadn’t then my flexibility would be no more, it’s a two way street imo!

My workplace is very flexible with things like this. Treating staff fairly doesn't have to mean identical working hours for everyone.

Flexibility is a 2 way thing you're absolutely right. My boss knows I regularly work more hours than I'm contracted to and we have many off site meetings planned together for the Autumn, all of which we are going to be home much later than normal but I would never dream of asking for this time back.

I would definitely remind my boss about this and if your flexibility request is refused, then you have to get tough on being flexible for them. This will impact your relationship with them and possibly your career progression. That is the problem.

On the face of it there is no reason for an employer to offer flexibility for one, and not others because it causes unrest. So they (especially in huge companys) tend to the inflexible if they don't already have a system in place.

You mentioned that you've been there a long time OP, hadn't you seen how other people manage? Or made plans? I'm not being agressive here but i have a similar position: DH left for work at 6 and i was supposed to start at 8 with an hour drive. Not possible, but i managed to persuade my company that flexing in the morning for me would lead to me being more able to flex at other times for them. (which eventually lead to core hours for everyone which worked very well)

What are you going to do if the inflexibility on your employer's part remains? because if you do the holiday thing for the 3 weeks, you presumably won't have enough for the rest of the year?

@Brefugee and @Rillington
Sorry if I wasn't clear, my plan has always been to split school hols between me and dh using annual leave as well as using holiday clubs. The nearest one runs 8.30 till 5.
As outlined I had always assumed based on what I've seen over the years that I would be allowed to flex to accommodate this because I've never not known this be granted.
My problem is that its not written into our contracts that we are allowed and therefore it depends on who you work for as to how accommodating they are. I've never yet known anybody be difficult about it until now which I find crazy especially considering I've demonstrated ability to make this work for the past 9 months.

My work ended my colleagues flexible working quite suddenly a few years ago. She had been starting and finishing an hour later than the rest of us to cover school drop off and suddenly it was no longer acceptable. She responded by refusing to work outside of her fixed office hours. She was no longer available for the occasional events in the evening, she couldn't come in early to help set up more regular daytime events. Unless something was an absolute crisis, she'd tell people she had to go at 5pm and they could pick it up whatever they were asking about in the morning. It took about 9 months for them to really appreciate how flexible she had been in covering their needs and they announced they had reconsidered her request. She had been there for about 10 years at the time and was loved by our department and all of the departments she worked with so it was a fairly low risk strategy on her part.

@Lucy788

This is what’s known as ‘manager’s discretion’ - which is great when you have a sensible manager who uses their discretion wisely and appropriately, and less so when you don’t.

It cuts both ways though. Your employee’s discretion might be less flexible in return.

Fingers crossed for you next week.

I don't think its fair some managers are more flexible than others unless the work they are doing is radically different. I'd cut back on doing anything above your contracted hours if they aren't willing to be flexible. It works both ways.

He didn't say no though did he? He said he'll have a think about it. If it means shuffling things around, he'll need to look at it before he makes a decision, maybe he has to get the say so from above. I hope he says yes OP

I explained to him that my alternative is to take unpaid leave 2 x days a week for 3 weeks as I will have no childcare and he basically sent me away and said he will think about it and let me know next Thursday if im allowed.

He’s thinking about it. Book the holiday club - presumably they have a cancellation policy and you say it fills up quick so you’d likely get your money back.

He’ll probably allow it. If not, as you say, he’ll have to deal with staffing because of unpaid leave instead.

It’s fine to be frustrated it wasn’t granted immediately but hrr we hadn’t actually said no yet.

As outlined I had always assumed based on what I've seen over the years that I would be allowed to flex to accommodate this because I've never not known this be granted.

in that case it's a bit shit of this manager. So in case he comes back, after thinking about it, with "no" you should already have evidence to back up that the company already does this. Possibly that would be discrimination against you? (in UK do you have regulations about offering this kind of thing to everyone under equality legislation?)

It could be that he thinks the decision is above his pay grade and he's just checking?

As outlined I had always assumed based on what I've seen over the years that I would be allowed to flex to accommodate this because I've never not known this be granted
But this is not just about changing your hours slightly, this is about continuing to make your hours up working from home, so meaning you are less in the office.

What happens if one of your colleague says that she has to pick up her kids at 4, so can she leave at 3:30 3 days a week. Then another says that her mum has an appointment at 4pm every Thursday and can't go there on her own, so can she finish early and so on...

Your boss is right to consider your request taking into consideration the impact of saying yes, setting up precedence. I've seen the mess teams have ended up in because a manager said yes to one, then another asked and when said no, claimed unfairness and before we knew it, there was no one in the office on Friday afternoons, often noone after 3:30 and not enough staff on school holidays. The business very much suffered and in the end, he had to go.

No, if the work can be done flexibly and the role allows for it then business does not suffer.

On the other hand, the business will suffer if the employees stop work flexibly in return.

Could you submit a flexible working request that is the same hours but with the request to flex hours during school holidays? When I changed my hours to my current working pattern i put that caveat in so I work.different days/hours during school holidays

I thought everyone had a right to request flexible working now?