To wonder why the government don't increase taxes to fund the NHS better?

[Smolgoose]

From a lot of threads on here recently about lack of being able to access healthcare, and my own anecdotal experiences, it seems like the NHS is in a worse crisis than ever, and not able to cope with the demands upon it.

This thread is definately not about individual NHS staff, but about the whole system generally.

Why don't the government increase taxation to increase NHS funding? It wouldn't solve some issues such as the shortage of staff, but funding could be also funneled into increasing the number of people trained.

A lot of people think we are heading down a privitisation route, but as far as I know the government have not yet floated the idea of changing free at the point of service.

We're in this mess because people like my very comfortably well off MIL will happily stand on their fucking doorstep clapping like a seal for 'our NHS heroes' so that their neighbours can see her but lies awake at night worrying about paying tenpence more tax to actually pay for it. Former NHS worker here, I've seen the devastation that cuts cause to services and it makes my blood boil. Here come all the crap excuses about poor management etc but the truth is that people want a free health care system but don't want to actually pay for it. Our revolting, immoral government knows this too. The hypocrisy is absolutely astounding.

@CheerfulBunny

We're in this mess because people like my very comfortably well off MIL will happily stand on their fucking doorstep clapping like a seal for 'our NHS heroes' so that their neighbours can see her but lies awake at night worrying about paying tenpence more tax to actually pay for it. Former NHS worker here, I've seen the devastation that cuts cause to services and it makes my blood boil. Here come all the crap excuses about poor management etc but the truth is that people want a free health care system but don't want to actually pay for it. Our revolting, immoral government knows this too. The hypocrisy is absolutely astounding.

You've never seen any waste in the NHS?

The whole "waste" argument is designed to deflect attention and pretend that there is enough money

All big organisations will have waste

Didn't they work out that compared to others the nhs is a low waste organisation ?

@CheerfulBunny

We're in this mess because people like my very comfortably well off MIL will happily stand on their fucking doorstep clapping like a seal for 'our NHS heroes' so that their neighbours can see her but lies awake at night worrying about paying tenpence more tax to actually pay for it. Former NHS worker here, I've seen the devastation that cuts cause to services and it makes my blood boil. Here come all the crap excuses about poor management etc but the truth is that people want a free health care system but don't want to actually pay for it. Our revolting, immoral government knows this too. The hypocrisy is absolutely astounding.

Well It certainly wasent any better off under Labour ,they may have put more money in but it didn't fund patient care ,it funded endless tiers of management ,and endless paperwork,computer systems that didn't work ,I'm also a former NHS worker

Did they? Perhaps you can share that data midge.

The point is, while there is massive waste, there's no point giving them more cash to go the same way.

In a much smaller example, I see it in school. When budgets are tight, things have to be run efficiently. In periods where there has been more cash, it's splashed about without a second thought. Goveing an inefficient service more cash won't improve the patient experience and lots will go on executive salaries

I would pay more tax for the NHS.

Funding for the NHS has Decreased in real terms over the last decade. While the population ages and health issues around obesity and austerity increase.

Under Labour the government put more into the NHS. New services were set up (bowel cancer screening) and waiting lists were at record lows.

It's too easy to blame inefficiency. Believe me I know as a regular NHS user that there is a lot room for efficiencies to be made. But as another poster mentioned as national health systems go, internationally ours is pretty good value for money.

The Tories have no commitment to the NHS. Record numbers of GP practices are now run by private companies. Imho the Tories aim is to run it down so much that anyone that can possibly find the money will go private. And people like many on this thread will not want it funded because it's so run down/inefficient.

We will never get it back. 🤬

...people want a free health care system but don't want to actually pay for it. Our revolting, immoral government knows this too.

Yep.

CheerfulBunny
It’s funded to the tune of 150 Billion a year, so it’s just a case of throwing more money at it, how much another 50/100 billion, how about streamlining the management, better procurement, limiting some services and make people have health insurance for certain activities, make people pay that shouldn’t be using the NHS ( health tourist), means testing for dental and eye care, etc I’m sure you and other people could come up with some ideas,

Inefficiencies and problems are not evidence of over funding. Quite the contrary. They are evidence of lack of investment in quality systems. Administrative costs in the NHS are very low - far too little is spent on developing efficient processes that improve outcomes and experiences for patients and save money in the long run.

All other proposed systems will cost more. Some astronomically.

I work in the NHs and I wouldn't support tax rises.
I would like to see a change in law to allow management to 'let go' of chronic underperforming workers. Rather than waste hours and hours of 'encouraging and supporting' workers who couldn't give a toss. The job for life philosophy needs to end. A retirement age should be brought back. There are so many over 65s that block younger people joining the workforce. New ideas and efficient ways of working has been eroded in my experience of this age group they want to stay and contribute but afk them to work a different way and they start threatening to retire and say 'I don't need to be here'. The GP contract that Blair's government drew up in 97 needs tearing up so people can once again access GPs and actually see a GP from their own surgery if needed out of hours. Asking people to give the NHS more is crazy. It just needs to run more efficiently. If your car had a petrol leak you wouldn't ignore it and just fill up more frequently and ask your boss for a pay rise to finance it. You would get the leak fixed. But the NHS seems to have become a sacred cow in ghat nobody is allowed to criticize it.

I would stop a lot of the elective things the NHS offers. I know it's not fair if, for example, only the wealthy can have fertility treatment or gender reassignment (not meaning to lump the two together) but there has to be a limit to what the state can be expected to fund.

I’d be VERY happy to pay more tax, but actually the NHS is funded well and managed extremely badly

@Sirius99

CheerfulBunny It’s funded to the tune of 150 Billion a year, so it’s just a case of throwing more money at it, how much another 50/100 billion, how about streamlining the management, better procurement, limiting some services and make people have health insurance for certain activities, make people pay that shouldn’t be using the NHS ( health tourist), means testing for dental and eye care, etc I’m sure you and other people could come up with some ideas,

"Means testing" is another way of saying "increasing higher rate tax". That's a good policy IMO, but it's strange you are talking about it as an alternative when it's the same thing.

@x2boys

The NHS wasts vast sums of money and no one is held accountable,it needs a complete overhaul.

This. It needs an overhaul and analysis to determine where its hemorrhaging cash. More money won't just fix it.

I work in the NHs and I wouldn't support tax rises. I would like to see a change in law to allow management to 'let go' of chronic underperforming workers. Rather than waste hours and hours of 'encouraging and supporting' workers who couldn't give a toss.

No change in the law is needed. It’s reasonably easy to performance manage someone out on capability or conduct grounds. The bit that isn’t easy is having the time to tackle this (insufficient time funded for people management) and the skills (HR departments stripped out because they are admin and therefore not necessary, leaving clinical and technical staff to make it up as they go along).

I have been a civil servant most of my working life and I have seen how government departments spunk millions on wasteful, unnecessary crap and how people managers are paid £££ to do fuck all.

So I prefer not to pay more tax for it to disappear down yet another black hole.

bananapumpkin
What’s wrong with means testing ? Rich people having free eye test and dental check ups ( pensioners) how about paying to see the doctor?

Just out of interest, who much is Covid costing the NHS at the moment and how to people in other countries get on that haven’t got free healthcare?

@THisbackwithavengeance

I have been a civil servant most of my working life and I have seen how government departments spunk millions on wasteful, unnecessary crap and how people managers are paid £££ to do fuck all.

So I prefer not to pay more tax for it to disappear down yet another black hole.

The NHS is not the civil service.

It might not be the civil service but it is a public service and ime @THisbackwithavengeance could well be talking about the NHS

@Sirius99 Nothing wrong with it, I even said in my post I agree! I'm simply pointing out that means testing is tax by another name. It makes no sense to say "there's no need to pay more tax, instead we can means test".

I wonder how much of the current funding is being diverted into private hands.

I understand that private suppliers can use the NHS logo so how many NHS logo’d resources are actually services being sold to the NHS for presumably more than it would cost if managed in house.

I’d rather we better spent the taxes already being collected and have a fee for doctors visits, all prescriptions etc than pay more in taxes that wouldn’t necessarily make the service any better.

I think social care is a much higher priority than the NHS at present. On a macro level the NHS is quite good value, but as others have identified in the thread there is still plenty of inefficiency in the system.

That said, as I currently pay >50% of my (admittedly comfortable) gross income in tax/NI I am not volunteering to pay more anytime soon - and don't think I should have to.

I agree with all of the comments about the NHS (as it is) being a sacred cow for many, being the root of a lot of our problems. For example a sensible discussion about the benefits of a small, means-tested co-pay (such as exists in many countries) could help to fund the system better without harming patients. Or discussion about where the use of private resources might be more cost effective or give better patient outcomes.

Before you jump to conclusions I haven't voted Conservative in any of the last four or five elections...

I'd pay more tax if I trusted that our government and big businesses weren't corrupt, fraudulent, inefficient and wasteful.