Cyclists without helmets

[Freedi8]

Driving around my local town today which was heaving and was quite lovely to see everybody having a good time.

Anyway, as we were driving, there were 3 cyclists who didn't appear to be experienced cyclists - 2 men and a woman.

They were riding in the middle of the road, they had no helmets on, they were trying to over take cars when cars were turning (a few near misses from different cars), they were weaving in and out of cars, and they were not concentrating on the road but pointing at buildings as they cycled in the middle of the road.

The thing is, we would sigh a sigh of relief whenever we got past them, just for them to catch up at traffic lights.

The worst 2 incidents were:
The man and woman got through an amber traffic light turning right and it turned red before their friend got through. Their friend decided to go through the red light and almost got hit by an oncoming car.

Second was, in a queue of traffic lights ready to turn left, when the cyclists come through on the left side of the cars and as i'm about to turn left they coming straight past me on the left side wanting to turn right.

My patience was wearing a thin and I couldn't believe they weren't wearing helmets when they were riding their bikes with such carelessness.

@MullinerSpec

YANBU, I'm a cyclist and a motorist, the issue is that the both are culpable motorists for not looking etc and cyclists doing stupid things like overtaking on the left or jumping lights as if that does not apply to them.

Back when I was at school (Primary) we had to do cycling proficiency which meant learning the Highway Code (well signs etc) it certainly made me a more confident and safer cyclist. Maybe bring that in.

The stupid may be equal* but the consequences when stupid goes wrong are not. We hold drivers to a higher standard than cyclists because their capacity for damage is so much higher.

(* although of those specific examples it’s worth noting that cyclists are allowed to pass on the left and most cycle lanes actively encourage it, which doesn’t help novice cyclists appreciate it’s dangerous)

Most (maybe all) councils give free one to one cycling on roads tuition. It’s worth doing. It won’t train you to do what most drivers think is safe cycling ie cowering in the gutter in a plastic hat so you don’t inconvenience them. It will teach you confidence, hazard awareness, safe road positioning and how to manage / mitigate dangerous driving.

But at the end of the day you could take every cyclist off the road altogether and the KSI stats would hardly move. Any change there was would be mostly a result of fewer injured cyclists. Take every driver off the road and you’d save many lives.

Note for the hard of thinking: no I’m not suggesting taking all drivers off the road, I recognise our society as is can’t function without them. It’s a thought experiment to illustrate why treating cyclists and drivers as equal problems is invalid.

Please provide a study that says helmets do not assist in any way against any head or brain injury.

Please provide a study that gives that likelihood of an individual cyclist suffering a head or brain injury of the type that would be mitigated by a cycling helmet.

As Bayes would tell you, knowing the probability of a serious injury once an accident has happened isn’t much help predicting the likelihood of a serious injury in the first place. For any individual cyclist, it’s the latter that’s relevant.

If my risk per annum of a cycling head injury is 5% or more, based on your stats I’ll wear a helmet. If it’s more like 1% I might consider a helmet. If it’s 0.1% or less, doesn’t seem a compelling reason to wear a helmet.

You can tell which cyclists are likely to be dangerous - they’re the numpties with no helmet who are wearing street clothes, riding wherever they feel like it including on the pavement, and not signalling or anything.

So basically all urban cyclists around the world except in the UK.
Only in London I've seen commuters in lycra, I've cycled in a lot of countries and cities, and never worn anything else than street clothes, I'm going to work, not to the Mont Ventoux, and it's 20 miles a day, not 200.

I really don't get that lycra craze in the UK, it can be very off putting for prospective cyclists (and it's also very male, and very white)

YABU. In other European countries which are keen on cycling helmets are routinely not used. Examples are Holland and Denmark. This creates a culture where cycling is not seen as a dangerous sport, and it becomes a sustainable and healthy option for everyone from 6 to 96. Whilst I do where a helmet, I think if we are keen on making cycling for everybody we have to make it safe for all users. The other key movement would be to have assumed liability for motorists who hit a cyclist unless it can be proved otherwise, which is the case in a number of European countries.

@OooPourUsACupLove

Please provide a study that says helmets do not assist in any way against any head or brain injury.

Please provide a study that gives that likelihood of an individual cyclist suffering a head or brain injury of the type that would be mitigated by a cycling helmet.

As Bayes would tell you, knowing the probability of a serious injury once an accident has happened isn’t much help predicting the likelihood of a serious injury in the first place. For any individual cyclist, it’s the latter that’s relevant.

If my risk per annum of a cycling head injury is 5% or more, based on your stats I’ll wear a helmet. If it’s more like 1% I might consider a helmet. If it’s 0.1% or less, doesn’t seem a compelling reason to wear a helmet.

It could literally happen at any time. You might be lucky and never ever fall if your bike. You might fall the first day and never recover.

Probability doesn't come into it for me. I ride horses and I've only ever once hit my head falling off. I wear a helmet every single day regardless, before and after that one accident. The probability maybe says it might happen only one more time after that, but how do I know which specific day? I don't. Nor do you. No one does. So I cover the risk with a helmet.

It could literally happen at any time. You might be lucky and never ever fall if your bike. You might fall the first day and never recover.*

Probability doesn't come into it for me. I ride horses and I've only ever once hit my head falling off. I wear a helmet every single day regardless, before and after that one accident. The probability maybe says it might happen only one more time after that, but how do I know which specific day? I don't. Nor do you. No one does. So I cover the risk with a helmet.

Right. So you wear a helmet in a car and walking as well? Climbing stairs? In the shower? Those are all activities with a non-zero risk of head injury, so by your logic, all equally justifying a helmet.

Or if you don’t, why not?

@OooPourUsACupLove

* It could literally happen at any time. You might be lucky and never ever fall if your bike. You might fall the first day and never recover.*

Probability doesn't come into it for me. I ride horses and I've only ever once hit my head falling off. I wear a helmet every single day regardless, before and after that one accident. The probability maybe says it might happen only one more time after that, but how do I know which specific day? I don't. Nor do you. No one does. So I cover the risk with a helmet.

Right. So you wear a helmet in a car and walking as well? Climbing stairs? In the shower? Those are all activities with a non-zero risk of head injury, so by your logic, all equally justifying a helmet.

Or if you don’t, why not?

No because they are not as risky as cycling or horse riding. Cycling involves trusting others on the road sometimes, but either way you are moving at a greater speed than usual, like when walking, so damage is easier to do. With horse riding, you are trusting an animal with a brain of its own and hoping it won't act on instinct. As many horse riders will tell you, they often will act on instinct when you least expect it, and horses can go from a walk to a gallop very quickly, they can also spin at speed. Both ways are going to do more damage than when you're walking and fall over. Or standing and fall over.

It's your choice if you don't want to wear one. But don't try to say they won't protect you at all. That's wrong. They won't protect you from everything no, but they are helpful and may reduce the damage done. I'll take that over not bothering.

No because they are not as risky as cycling or horse riding

Ah, so risk does come into it then. Which is back to my original point that just giving stats about the effectiveness of helmets without assessing the risk of injury in the first place is pointless.

You know about horses. I’ll trust your assessment there.

I know about bicycling on roads. Unlike you I actually have looked up the head injury stats for cyclists. I’ll trust my assessment that for the way I use my bike, the reduction in risk a helmet gives me is minimal and does not justify the downsides.

I really wish all cyclists would wear helmets, normalise it. I worked with a lovely woman who cycled into work every day, no helmet, she fell off her bike in Morrison's car park, hit her head and died, it was so tragic, at the inquest it was concluded that had she been wearing a helmet she would have survived. Yeah maybe a freak accident but i never want to take that risk and DH and DC always wear one.

@StepAwayFromTheEcclesCakes

I really wish all cyclists would wear helmets, normalise it. I worked with a lovely woman who cycled into work every day, no helmet, she fell off her bike in Morrison's car park, hit her head and died, it was so tragic, at the inquest it was concluded that had she been wearing a helmet she would have survived. Yeah maybe a freak accident but i never want to take that risk and DH and DC always wear one.

Around 800 people die in the UK each year due to falling down stairs.

I really wish everyone using stairs would wear a helmet.

Etc., etc., etc.

@StepAwayFromTheEcclesCakes

I really wish all cyclists would wear helmets, normalise it. I worked with a lovely woman who cycled into work every day, no helmet, she fell off her bike in Morrison's car park, hit her head and died, it was so tragic, at the inquest it was concluded that had she been wearing a helmet she would have survived. Yeah maybe a freak accident but i never want to take that risk and DH and DC always wear one.

I wish we’d stop normalising selfish driving so that many people killed by drivers where a helmet wouldn’t have made a blind bit of difference would still be alive.

And once we’ve saved all those people, maybe helmets on cyclists will seem worthwhile tackling for the small number of additional lives that might be saved.

Until then, I’ll say charitably that focusing on bicycle helmets is usually an ineffective distraction from well-meaning but somewhat blinkered people, and at times downright cynical misdirection from a motor industry who should , and does, know better.

Statistically, car drivers would benefit more than cyclists from wearing a helmet.

And it would be easier for them to wear one - they've somewhere safe to store it while they go about their business, unlike cyclists who have to lug them around shipping etc.

Statistically pedestrians are more likely to suffer a serious head injury than cyclists but we haven't asked them to wear helmets yet. Why not?

I'll come back to the research re. head effectiveness of helmets more generally later as it's on my computer at home.

@Jocasta2018

I was driving yesterday afternoon & got stuck behind a moped. It only went on for about 2 miles but was very weird.

Firstly it was unable to go above 30mph in a 40 then 50mph zone & slowed down to 20mph when it went up a hill.

It was weaving all across the road & the rider kept on stretching their arms out so it looked like they were turning but didn't.
There were no indicators - looked like an off-road bike. Certainly whenever they cornered, they were putting a foot down.

I was keeping WELL back - almost expecting them to come off their bike...
It was single lane traffic & there were plenty of cars coming in the opposite direction so there was no way I could try to overtake even if it felt safe enough.

There was a driver right up my arse flashing me - I shrugged at him a few times in my mirror.

Finally at a roundabout, I went to the right & the bike carried on - a bit of karma for the aggressive arse behind me.

I was cursing I didn't have a voice-activated set up to use my phone else I would've called the police.

Firstly it was unable to go above 30mph in a 40 then 50mph zone

Mopeds are restricted to 30 mph max speed by law.

@StepAwayFromTheEcclesCakes

I really wish all cyclists would wear helmets, normalise it. I worked with a lovely woman who cycled into work every day, no helmet, she fell off her bike in Morrison's car park, hit her head and died, it was so tragic, at the inquest it was concluded that had she been wearing a helmet she would have survived. Yeah maybe a freak accident but i never want to take that risk and DH and DC always wear one.

Her choice, her life.

I wear a helmet but am under no illusions it would help me one iota in a collision with car.

Car driving standards in this country are shocking, the test is very easy to pass, roads are congested because people are too lazy to walk of cycle anywhere.
We are a nation of fatties, one reason why we got hit hard by covid but "oh look" there is a cyclist without a helmet on... the twat! i'll run her over!"

One unhelmeted cyclist is still one less car on the road, you'd think drivers would be happy

The comment about helmetless cyclists in normal clothes telling here. As pp said: that is the absolute norm everywhere except UK. And i suspect in places like York, Oxford and Cambridge it is also the norm.

There is a difference between cycling as sport (wear lycra if you like, but deffo wear a helmet, please) and cycling as transport (please build up the infrastructure to normalise it. No lycra needed. Helmet - your own decision)

It's the norm in central London as well Boris bikes for example