Page 11 | To think Boris should not have been married in Westmister Cathedral?

TwoAndAnOnion · 31/05/2021 13:40

@buggerbuggery

Divorced people are not allowed to be married in a Catholic church. Boris Johnson has been married twice before. His first marriage was annulled, so the church does not count. But his second marriage does count. So he should never have been allowed to marry in a Catholic Cathedral.

You are discounting everything you are being told.

Boris was Catholic, had his faith changed to Anglican to conform at Eton.

His first marriage was Anglican, and his second marriage was civil. One was annulled (no idea on what grounds or whether the media use incorrect terminology) and the second (civil) wouldn't be recognised by any church.

Boris has now reverted to his original Catholic faith he is quite free to marry within the Catholic faith.

Just because YOU disagree with it, doesn't make it wrong.

TwoAndAnOnion · 31/05/2021 13:43

@Joolsin

I thought Westminster was a CofE cathedral?

Westminster Abbey - CofE Westminster Cathedral - RC

TwoAndAnOnion · 31/05/2021 13:45

@wherewildflowersgrow

Fancy getting his second marriage made invalid when he has 4 children from it. He really is a hog.

FFS it's invalid in the eyes of the church because it was a civil ceremony when he married Marina, 12 days after his first divorce, who was 8.5 months pregnant that the time.

He didnt make it invalid

TwoAndAnOnion · 31/05/2021 13:46

@mathanxiety

Peter Phillips had to renounce his place in the succession because he married a Catholic. Catholicism is anathema to the Royal family.

@BalloonSlayer, I think actually Autumn Kelly decided to renounce Catholicism and be received into the CoE in order for him to keep his spot in line.

Thats not true - Autumn Kelly had to convert to Anglicanism

belleager · 31/05/2021 13:48

Boris has now reverted to his original Catholic faith he is quite free to marry within the Catholic faith.

Not exactly - he was baptised a Catholic so never "left", legally. He doesn't need to have changed his attitude to the church at all. This isn't about him reconciling with the Church. He was baptised and they don't get to change that.

BalloonSlayer · 31/05/2021 14:29

@mathanxiety and @Twoandanonion sorry my mistake I am sure you are correct. However it is much the same thing - marry a Catholic and you're o.u.t. Although I think maybe Princess Michael of Kent is a Catholic? But she is a long way down the list.

belleager · 31/05/2021 14:46

When she married Prince Michael of Kent he was barred from the succession, apparently. But in 2015 he was restored - change of rules. So now he is just 50 places away from the Crown

user1471447863 · 31/05/2021 14:55

@buggerbuggery your attitude is decidedly unchristian. I thought you were meant to love thy neighbour and turn the other cheek and all that.

Maybe it's gods plan? He allowed it after all and what with being omnipotent and all that he could have stopped it if he'd wanted (just like when he is aware of children being raped......). He does work in mysterious ways after all.

Or maybe god is allowing it to punish you for not believing hard enough. That happens apparently.

Or maybe churches like money as much as they like power and control over people and if you cross their palm with silver they'll let you do anything you want? After all the Roman Catholic Church is the wealthiest organisation in the world (imagine how many poor they could help if they really wanted).

Frankly I couldn't give a shiny shit in what private members club Boris got married

belleager · 31/05/2021 16:10

[quote user1471447863]@buggerbuggery your attitude is decidedly unchristian. I thought you were meant to love thy neighbour and turn the other cheek and all that.

Maybe it's gods plan? He allowed it after all and what with being omnipotent and all that he could have stopped it if he'd wanted (just like when he is aware of children being raped......). He does work in mysterious ways after all.

Or maybe god is allowing it to punish you for not believing hard enough. That happens apparently.

Or maybe churches like money as much as they like power and control over people and if you cross their palm with silver they'll let you do anything you want? After all the Roman Catholic Church is the wealthiest organisation in the world (imagine how many poor they could help if they really wanted).

Frankly I couldn't give a shiny shit in what private members club Boris got married[/quote]
I'm sure they'd have happily paid Boris to go away, if their rules allowed it. Who wants this kind of PR? They are obliged to treat him (and Carrie) as they would any other baptised Catholics.

I don't really understand the motivation of posters who keep charging onto the thread, ignoring all the information posted here about how Catholic marriage works, and insisting that it's all about the money / corruption / the Establishment. No-one is asking you to admire Boris or approve of the church. But why ignore the facts?

BigWoollyJumpers · 31/05/2021 16:26

I am a baptised Catholic who married in a CofE church, and am an Atheist. So what? DH's family were religious so we did it for them, but it is meaningless to us. Our children are not baptised. We didn't get shot down by fiery arrows, so I assuming all is well.

SenecaFallsRedux · 31/05/2021 16:28

A previous sacramental marriage would need to be annulled by the Catholic Church for a future Catholic marriage ceremony to be allowed.

This is similar to what happened with a family member. He was married in the US Episcopal Church (both parties not Catholic at the time). They later divorced, she remarried. She and her new husband converted to RC and then wanted to be married in the Church. My family member received a very official documented notice from the Catholic Church that his ex-wife was petitioning for an annulment. He did not contest it, of course. But basically the Catholic Church annulled his non-Catholic marriage.

CoRhona · 31/05/2021 16:59

Boris makes my skin crawl.

She deserves every second she has to be with him; and the same goes for him with her.

This is not a match made in heaven. You'd have thought they'd actually have preferred a low key ceremony so that when the inevitable happens it would be less embarrassing.

chunkymonkey101 · 31/05/2021 17:23

It has always been the case that if you are married outside of the church, e.g. registry office that you are still free to marry in a church. This is a well known fact that I thought all catholics were aware of.

MissyB1 · 31/05/2021 17:28

@CoRhona

Boris makes my skin crawl.

She deserves every second she has to be with him; and the same goes for him with her.

This is not a match made in heaven. You'd have thought they'd actually have preferred a low key ceremony so that when the inevitable happens it would be less embarrassing.

Well yes indeed! I can’t imagine God was doing much blessing of this marriage, probably more like thinking “oh ffs here we go again!”

TurquoiseLemur · 31/05/2021 17:30

@mathanxiety

An annulment doesn't affect the status of the children and is no reflection whatsoever on them.

It might well affect their perception of their parents' relationship though. ("Oh, btw, our marriage wasn't really a marriage.") This isn't how real relationships work.

Annulment is a quasi-legal nicety designed to side-step the "problem" of a marriage breaking down. If the CC accepted that divorce happens, and that there are really far worse things going on in the world, they wouldn't have to cobble together the nonsense that is annulment.

newnortherner111 · 31/05/2021 17:31

@CoRhona I think that is unfair- no woman or man deserves Mr Boris Johnson. I view Mrs Johnson (as she now is) as either having low self-esteem or being unwell.

Jibberty · 31/05/2021 17:35

@buggerbuggery

The Catholic Church teaches that marriages are unbreakable unions, and thus remarrying after a divorce (without an annulment) is a sin

The Catholic Church also has form for horrific abuse, removing babies from young single mothers and generally being pretty fucking intolerant.

Boris getting married in Westminster Cathedral really ought to be the least of your concerns.

But, you know, turn a blind eye to wicked priests and nuns, and get upset about something really rather trivial.

CoRhona · 31/05/2021 18:38

@newnortherner111

She knew what she was doing. Previous tory communications; had an affair with him and became pregnant; and has now engineered marriage.

He just wants to fuck Arcuri types.

Chloemol · 31/05/2021 18:40

@buggerbuggery

If you read what the church says ( and no I have waded through all the posts) he was born as a catholic, but has never married in a Catholic Church, therefore the Catholic Church does not recognise those marriages, so he can get married now

Why can’t you just be happy for them

ResIpsaLoquiturInterAlia · 31/05/2021 19:20

To those infinitely more knowledge on canon law - a good Roman Catholic neighbour has kindly suggested:

Canon 1398 - a rule of canon law of the Catholic Church which declares that "a person (ie chameleon Bojo who pick and choose rules to suit) who procures a completed abortion incurs a latae sententiae (automatic) excommunication."

Perhaps short of a Roman Catholic bishop giving an explanation, this is the material point of Canon law which may apply here apparently? Excommunicated by default but welcomed with open arms and telling the public with fake news that the cathedral is closing immediately due to fake lockdown rules so that a couple can squeeze in a private ceremony. As I said earlier I wish the couple well but intrigued by fact finding to get a further understanding of the larger picture as with regards to rules, giving and taking. This is relevant because this couple of coworkers are going to be in charge of rules and instructions for getting us out of the so far mismanaged pandemic.

Don’t shot the messenger as without outing myself I am not a person of Roman Catholic faith. I am a corporate legal professional but not in Canon law! I do naturally have a legal curiosity in justice and equity. I do happen to be not far and within walking distance to the magnificent Westminster Cathedral as it happens. Always intrigued by the architecture as well as what happens inside!

mathanxiety · 31/05/2021 19:26

It might well affect their perception of their parents' relationship though. ("Oh, btw, our marriage wasn't really a marriage.") This isn't how real relationships work.

That problem could be cured by offering a correct explanation to the children. The explanation would include a comparison of secular/civil law marriage vs. sacramental marriage. The two are different.

Annulment is a quasi-legal nicety designed to side-step the "problem" of a marriage breaking down. If the CC accepted that divorce happens, and that there are really far worse things going on in the world, they wouldn't have to cobble together the nonsense that is annulment.

The Catholic Church does accept that divorce happens. It correctly understands that marriage and divorce are secular/legal/civil law matter, but holds that marriage in the RC church is a sacrament as well as a secular/civil law matter.

The CoE and other protestant denominations don't hold a view of marriage as a sacrament. The RC annulment process is separate from the secular/civil law divorce process and seeks to answer questions related to the sacramental nature of the marriage. These questions are entirely separate from the question of whether a marriage was legal in the civil law sense.

To be a valid sacrament of matrimony in the RC church, both parties have to meet certain conditions as they decide to marry and prepare for marriage. The RC church looks at the circumstances that existed in the lives, minds, and hearts of each of the parties at the time the wedding took place as it comes to its decision on annulment, which is a statement that the marriage was sacramentally invalid (canon law), not legally (civil law) null and void.

It's not a nicety designed to replace civil divorce or to deny that the civil law exists, that civil marriage exists, or that divorce exists. The RC church sees the civil law as a fundamental and indispensable element of society. The annulment process does not go ahead until a civil divorce has been granted. You have to present proof of secular/ civil law divorce along with your other paperwork when you file or respond to a petition for RC annulment of your sacramental marriage.

There are two jurisdictions at play in the case of civil marriage and sacramental marriage. One is the civil law, the law of the land. The other is Canon Law, the law of the RC church. They are completely separate systems, designed with completely different ends, and with completely different terms of reference.

ResIpsaLoquiturInterAlia · 31/05/2021 19:30

Apparently the whole marriage debate is a technical red herring and legally immaterial. It’s the fact that apparently amongst Johnson’s antics he has been involved in an act which is a complete no no in strict Catholicism. Hence the applicable Canon law regarding abortions as I reference above.

LibertyMole · 31/05/2021 19:41

‘Canon 1398 - a rule of canon law of the Catholic Church which declares that "a person (ie chameleon Bojo who pick and choose rules to suit) who procures a completed abortion incurs a latae sententiae (automatic) excommunication."’

Excommunication for abortion can be immediately ended by a priest once the person confesses. It isn’t like excommunication for extreme and rare acts where the pope has to end the excommunication. It isn’t that you have an abortion and someone announces you have been excommunicated. It is just that catholics know they have done something that excommunication applies with immediate effect.

mathanxiety · 31/05/2021 19:41

@ResIpsaLoquiturInterAlia, it may be that Carrie being a RC is the deciding factor in having the wedding at Westminster Cathedral. This is her first marriage and she is apparently a churchgoing RC. Though it may also be that Boris may have demonstrated enough understanding of his past sins and current circumstances and the undertakings he is making in the vows to warrant the church wedding.

ResIpsaLoquiturInterAlia · 31/05/2021 19:57

@ LibertyMole & @ mathanxiety

Thank you both for sharing your knowledge on this intriguing technical aspect of (Canon) law and faith generally. This has been an intriguing learning curve.

I hope this will offer the newly wedded more stability and a platform to focus on running our post Brexit pandemic nation to the best of their ability without other distractions. We need more proactive and less reactionary governance to save lives and livelihoods.