Coca Cola

[pam290358]

Has anyone else found the ‘try to be less white’ advice given to Coca Cola employees offensive ? The training video urges them to be less oppressive and less ignorant - thus aligning those traits with being white. I find it offensive to the point of reverse racism. Imagine if the training video had advised ‘be less black’. There would, rightly, have been an outcry. So why is this OK ? AIBU to boycott their products ?

@MrsTerry Pritchett I think it's unhelpful, because it puts racists backs up rather than challenging them. And if the goal is to reduce racism, it won't do that. This again, is exactly my point. It perpetuates racism by antagonising people. It seems to me that lately if you’re white and you try to express a different point of view, you’re immediately branded a racist and once the mudslinging starts it closes down the conversation.

[quote pam290358]**@MrsTerry* Pritchett I think it's unhelpful, because it puts racists backs up rather than challenging them. And if the goal is to reduce racism, it won't do that.* This again, is exactly my point. It perpetuates racism by antagonising people. It seems to me that lately if you’re white and you try to express a different point of view, you’re immediately branded a racist and once the mudslinging starts it closes down the conversation.[/quote]
Who is calling you a racist?

This again, is exactly my point.

It isn't your only point. It's your only good point. Muddling the issue talking about reverse racism and how it's equivalent in some way makes you sound like a racist. That's why you're 'branded a racist'. Not because of a perfectly valid point about how to address behaviour.

And the idea that being 'branded a racist' is somehow the worst possible thing to be is silly. Firstly, it's not, just look around at all the racists who are wildly successful in the UK. Secondly, it's very difficult to grow up in a racist country in a racist world, with racists around you at a racist time, and not have some effects. So notice them and do something about it. Fish don't see the water, we don't see the issues all around us. So try to notice them. Don't spend your time denying, have a little think if any of it is justified. Maybe none is.

There are subconscious bias tests online if you really want to check.

@Masterbeth. Actually, couple of posts upthread I was accused of not being a very nice person because I ‘argue for reverse racism’ which is something racists do. I should have known it would only be a matter of time before I was branded a racist - inevitable because it’s such an emotive subject. To answer your question about the above post though - it wasn’t intended to reflect personal accusations of being racist. I’ve watched and listened to discussions on TV and radio which have quickly descended into accusations of racism the moment someone disagrees with what’s being said, and it seems to shut down any meaningful conversation.The goal should be to open up free speech not shut it down.

It was me that said that. Are you reading what I'm actually writing or just thinking "I'M NOT RACIST" and shutting down critical thinking? Because it is an interesting debate. But only if people are willing to see their own part in the system.

It would be a miracle being a white person born and raised in the UK if you hadn't internalised some racism.

It's not some equivalence where suffering racism and being told you've said something racist are the same. They aren't. And 'branded'? Why is it always that word?

“White people love playing divide and rule” - Diane Abbott.

As a high-profile senior member of Parliament, Abbott is in a position of privilege & power. Her comment was blatantly racist, therefore ‘reverse racism’ exists.

Coca Cola have taken a valid idea and tried to express it as a catchphrase, which is where they've gone wrong. It's inevitable that it will be misinterpreted.

When will corporate trainers realise their employees aren't five-year-olds - they don't need everything to be reduced to a 'clever' phrase or (as is so often the case) an acronym.

If they'd called the course 'How to be mindful of your white privilege and put yourself in a black person's shoes' I doubt many would see it as a problem.

I wonder what they say to the black, brown, yellow people who are attending the training. Or maybe they don't have to attend??

As a high-profile senior member of Parliament, Abbott is in a position of privilege & power. Her comment was blatantly racist, therefore ‘reverse racism’ exists.

Her comments had the sum total of zero effect on white people. Because her privilege and influence only exists in a system that is white and male. Comments about immigrants, Europeans and POC made by male, white politicians (and professional arseholes like Farage) have had a noticeable effect on race-related attacks and harassment. And therefore reverse racism is utter bollocks.

BTW I've lived in countries where there was xenophobic feelings about British people. Quite serious at times. It's still not the same as systemic racism.

[quote pam290358]@Masterbeth. Actually, couple of posts upthread I was accused of not being a very nice person because I ‘argue for reverse racism’ which is something racists do. I should have known it would only be a matter of time before I was branded a racist - inevitable because it’s such an emotive subject. To answer your question about the above post though - it wasn’t intended to reflect personal accusations of being racist. I’ve watched and listened to discussions on TV and radio which have quickly descended into accusations of racism the moment someone disagrees with what’s being said, and it seems to shut down any meaningful conversation.The goal should be to open up free speech not shut it down.[/quote]
You are selectively quoting. You weren’t called a racist. It was argued that something you said was something that people who were either racist or ignorant of racism say.

To me, you sound ignorant of racism. You don’t seem to understand anti-racist arguments. You think you are being victimised by people branding you a racist when no-one is.

I don’t imagine for a moment that you hate people of colour or want to be anything other than fair-minded and tolerant. But, as MrsTerryPratchett has said, it’s very hard to live in a racist society without internalising some of the ideologies of that society. I know I have. So I am trying my best to improve by listening to what people of colour are telling me about it rather than getting upset when they tell me than my denying the problem is part of the problem.

“White people love playing divide and rule” - Diane Abbott.

Also worth mentioning that the genocide in Rwanda, and other places, probably wouldn't have happened without a colonialist policy of divide and rule. They did it in India too.

@pam290358

It just seems to me that if the goal is to eradicate racism, this kind of thing just perpetuates it.

So you're saying "this makes me want to be more racist than i currently am"? Weird flex but ok...

Weird flex but ok...

Proper LOL.

If you want to spend a fun few hours, implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/ has lots of tests for various subconscious biases.

I read what you wrote and no I’m not shutting down critical thinking - I’m actually wondering if you have read me right. I don’t think of myself as not a racist - I happen to share your opinion that if you live in these times you can’t help absorbing some unconscious racist bias, and I don’t think that being Woke addresses this problem - in some ways it actually serves to avoid examining that bias. At no point did I say that reverse racism is equivalent to the racism people of colour experience. At no point did I say that suffering racism and being accused of saying something racist are the same. I used the term ‘reverse racism’ perhaps unwisely, because I couldn’t think of a better way to put it. I was attempting highlight how antagonistic, and unhelpful this language is to an already complex issue. I happen to think it was deliberately divisive and if you read up on how they arrived at the phrasing used, you may possibly agree. They selected parts of a book called ‘white fragility’ and without the permission of the author incorporated them into the training video. The full phrase used in the video was not just ‘be less white’, it was ‘be less oppressive, be less ignorant, be less white’, which was completely out of context to the author’s intended meaning, and to my mind offensive.

Somewhere upthread I commented that in all the debates I’ve seen, when someone expresses a differing opinion, things turn unpleasant and the debate is shut down. This seems to have gone the same way so will ask. MN to take it down.

Why does anything need to be taken down? We seem to be debating the issue calmly and thoughtfully.

I find it odd that people start a 'debate' - dislike the responses - which generally are fine but just disagreeing - claim the debate has been shut down (while continuing to add to the shut down debate) and decide it should be deleted.

no one has been OTT on here - people have just challenged you

@ghostyslovesheets

I find it odd that people start a 'debate' - dislike the responses - which generally are fine but just disagreeing - claim the debate has been shut down (while continuing to add to the shut down debate) and decide it should be deleted.

no one has been OTT on here - people have just challenged you

I mean I'm not sure I love the phrase white fragility but this is sort of the definition of it, isn't it?

There's been no swearing, no name-calling, suggestions to examine bias, acknowledgement of the phrase being unhelpful. And I was trying to say we are all in the same boat as white people unpicking where our social conditioning hasn't been great.

But still it's too much.

things turn unpleasant and the debate is shut down

IMO this is untrue.

These are some stills from the video if anyone hasn't seen them.

You are not wrong Mrs T

To me, being less white in this context is a useful shorthand for the sentiment "make the effort to exist in the world without the blissful ignorance to systemic oppression that whiteness affords you". As a white person, I'm very happy (more than happy!) to do that. I don't find it offensive in the slightest. It certainly doesn't make me want to double down on any racial prejudice or un/conscious bias that circulates around me.

Anti-racism is a noble cause. But the movement needs to go back to using language that the vast majority want to get on board with - think Martin Luther King - rather than language that sounds the most "right on" or woke.

@supermoonrising

Anti-racism is a noble cause. But the movement needs to go back to using language that the vast majority want to get on board with - think Martin Luther King - rather than language that sounds the most "right on" or woke.

I always think of this in relation to women. Be nice, be kind, don't be angry, don't be as bad as sexist men. Make sure to pretty up your struggle and give a spoonful of sugar to the unpalatable truth.

Which I have done to the best of my ability on this thread. But do I expect black people to dress this up for the benefit of white people? No I don't. And as a feminist, I don't either.

People have been told a thousand times nicely. Once more with feeling.

Its un-nerving that OP believes MN would find good reason to take this thread down.