To think it’s hard for women to organise stuff

[Malteser71]

Background to my musings - I’m a pretty organised person, take the initiative, imagine stuff we could do with friends etc.

Husband has a two main groups of male friends who go away together - one weekend abroad per year, trips to sporting events etc. He’s never the one to organise them, so in that respect he gets an easy life, pays what he owes and turns up.

On the other hand, I have several smaller groups of female friends and it seems virtually impossible to do anything because of their various caring or other responsibilities.

As an example, one group of friends - the last two times I tried to organise something, the same one couldnt commit to a date because she was waiting to see (to be told) what her adult daughter was doing that weekend. She lives a couple of hours away, there was talk of her coming home, plans for us to go to Glasgow stalled after I’d done all the research. In the event, daughter didn’t come home and we didn’t go to Glasgow, then friend complained she had been bored all weekend.

I’ve no idea why she couldn’t have said she was unavailable that weekend and they could have arranged another. Adult daughter has no caring responsibilities.

Same friend, arranged to go out for afternoon tea (three of us) but again stalled because adult daughter then came to stay with her for three weeks during this period and she felt she should spend time with her instead. Then invited her to join us, then ditched us the day before and went out alone with daughter because she felt it wouldn’t be quality mum and daughter time for them together if friends present (so I had booked the table and they ended up using it!).

Just feeling guilty about not spending 1:1 time with her that afternoon, despite her staying in the house for three weeks, just the two of them.

Conversation with her recently - adult daughter thinking of moving closer to home. Wants to have kids. My friend can’t wait because she can then be on hand to help (understandable) but I just KNOW she will never, ever be available once there is a grandchild that ‘might’ need looking after so parents can go out.

Other friends - unable to commit to weekends away due to husbands unpredictable working patterns, despite their husbands being free to go away with friends because wives working patterns entirely predictable and therefore reliable childcare.

Another who can’t commit to anything due to adult daughter wanting to move house and needing help but not having a date in mind.

My two best school friends - both have taken jobs in schools in their late forties, now totally unavailable unless schools are closed, at which point they can’t do anything because they have children off school.

Other Friends invited to spend weekend at our holiday let, one can’t commit due to daughters gymnastics classes/competitions that clash with need to get other child to swimming lessons. Dad quite capable of taking one child, why doesn’t one child have a week off to enable mum to go away?

I’m honestly not somebody people are trying to avoid!

It’s always the same thing too, ‘you go ahead and book, I’ll join you if I can,’ when actually the dynamic of two friends going away rather than three is really different, so it’s not really the same.

And by the time they know whether they can come (based on others not needing them), the accommodation you were looking at has gone. This also happened when I invited friends to stay in our holiday let, by the time both committed, it had been let out that weekend.

I keep wondering, why is it that my husband and his male friends just think ‘shall we go away?’ And proceed to just, you know, book it.

I have two children, I have NO childcare apart from my husband. I have two jobs. I would love some quality time away, it just seems impossible to arrange this with female friends due to them being constantly needed, constantly at somebody else’s beck and call, never putting themselves first.

I think I ought to get some male mates? Or just give up completely? It’s a bit soul destroying and I really have got to the point of giving up.

Work patterns/ childcare are genuine issues, but there is a culture of mothers being martyrs or not assertive enough about their needs.

I had BFed, bottle-refusing babies which substantually restricted their first year each, but I did carve out what I could around it, and I never lost the habit of being myself. DH and I keep track of our plans on a calendar, and it's not hard to keep track of when there's a day free that we can make our own plans for. (Different if short notice shifts are the issue rather than leisure priorities)

I'd struggle to continuously accommodate the flakey mum of the adult daughter.

I'm actually about to give up on one group of frends as we never, ever actually meet up in person. It's a crap dynamic as one friend is always booked 6 months in advance, and one will never commit until the very last minute (and is very flaky so even if she does commit, there is a good chance she'll pull out). This is even for simple things like a coffee, or a meal out.

I've totally given up to be honest. The one time I did say something to the flaky one about the fact that we never did go on a particular weekend away when we were about to book tickets because she wouldn't commit, she got in a massive huff with me about it.

DH's friends are unorganised fools, but they seem to manage to get things booked no problem.

It’s not easy to raise, is it?

It’s not easy to raise a lot of things. You have to wait for an opportunity, like if Mrs Flaky pants was lamenting the fact we never did get to Glasgow, that would be the perfect opportunity, however I’d be worried she’d be hurt if I raised it.

The worst ones are people who spend six weeks deliberating, so if it’s the place in Cornwall for example, I have to keep the booking date free while they make up their mind. That’s me potentially losing business, without the fact I’m paying in the first place. The last time I booked a three night stay, it cost me £900 to close the property to guests, 60 for linen and 80 for a clean!

It absolutely is because for many women they can only take this time off if it does not, in any way, potentially inconvenience anyone else. And there are all kinds of reasons why this is an issue: from their partners/children genuinely making it hard for them to their own internal dialogue. Or, most likely, some combination thereof.

DH is very supportive of me taking time off/going away etc. Theoretically. I have noticed however that while he is more than willing to step up to do whatever needs doing while I'm not there, he's less willing to be flexible on his existing plans or if it requires organising. So, for example, if I'm not around he won't blink at having to get up early both Saturday and sunday to take the kids to their various activities, but if the only weekend is one where he might have to rearrange a single work shift or if it's a weekend where there is some organising to do because DC1 is going to a party while DC 2 needs childcare... he will (subtly) put up barriers.

I'm better at recognising what's happening now which makes it easier just to say, "No, DH, for this to happen you need to accept that you have to do this or this" but it took a while.

If they’re so keen to come to your place in Cornwall ( I’m very jealous of this text!)
Put the ball in their court and tell them to come up with a date. That is if you want them there? I’d be there every weekend myself and sod my flakey friends

It always seems to be the case, though. It might be sexist to say, but it always seems that certain responsibilities fall to the woman, whereas the man can go on holiday or go for drinks after work whenever he feels like it.

Not really had this, me and my small group of friends (4 of us) have always managed to make time for nights out and the odd weekends away

I completely agree op. And of course its easy to say make new friends, but how?!?
Once we are mid 50s its hard to make new friends. Sorry you might be a lot younger am just using my experience.

No I’m nearly fifty. And the kids are older and more independent, which opens up life a bit, however I’m shocked really at home tied down some of my friends are still.

The friend with the adult daughter, it’s really unhealthy, but it’s so hard to point it out.

I get you OP, having a nightmare trying to get anyone to commit to booking a weekend away in September.

To be fair the last year hasn't helped at all. Invariably on trips away someone has always dropped out for family reasons- one friend didn't come to something she really wanted as her DH thought he might be away, it was so obviously a sabotaging move we were astounded she even gave it any headspace. The weekend before he definitely wasn't going away and she was swithering about coming, but didn't in the end.

I've got round it now by ensuring one other person is committing and then booking with them. If others come - great - if they don't then no worries, sure the dynamic is better with 3 or 4 but I'm not trying to control other peoples movements.

I’ve given up with most of my friends who have kids. A couple make a massive effort and they’re the single ones!! So in theory it should be harder for them. But actually it seems to be easier.

I’m surprised about this in the 21st century. But there is only so many times you can suggest things without giving up.

@Malteser71

No I’m nearly fifty. And the kids are older and more independent, which opens up life a bit, however I’m shocked really at home tied down some of my friends are still.

The friend with the adult daughter, it’s really unhealthy, but it’s so hard to point it out.

Why don't you just name a date and go out with whoever can make it if it's too hard to get everyone to commit to the same date, if they miss out it's their loss, they might end up thinking they're missing out if you do this a few times and put more effort in to make it in the future.....or not but you'll still have fun with who ever does turn up

Maybe it’s because they just accept when people can’t go whereas my friends try to arrange then rearrange a weekend for example that everyone can make it!

This is the crux of the issue- mostly, in my experience, women will tend to try and plan things to include everyone all of the time which is impossible and therefore plans tend to break down or become more of a discussion or debate and generally a hassle. Also a lot of things are just (in the nicest possible way) general meet ups which have no specific time constraints and so it is harder to justify pushing to go for a coffee at a specific time on a specific day when you can go for coffee any time. Additionally rather than just go with part of a group a lot of women would rather cancel or nor organise to go out if their flaky friend can't make it, rather than just going ahead with other people.

Men, in general, tend to either canvas a general idea of when the most people are free and book, with the odd person having to miss out and they don't feel any guilt about it, or their plans are made around a specific event - a sports game/team etc- so "Going to watch the match" is something that happens at X time on Y day and you can either come or not but it cannot be moved. Additionally if they all have the same hobbies then they are likely to have the same fixed commitments (their teams games/specific competition final dates etc) that they can work around with their planning.

Totally get this!! I'll come with you next time, my DH can have the kids!

@TeenMinusTests

I think some/many women feel guilty carving out time for themselves and saying they are going to put their 'wants' first. I know I do. I even feel guilty making my DD go out with DH weekly while I have a counselling call.

This. And it’s obvious from your post Op that it’s the case with your friends. They’re prioritising other people over themselves. Whereas blokes (not all, obviously) will just agree to whatever’s organised and assume the woman in their life will be there to look after the kids.

Ive seen friends with adult daughters like this before....its a sort of close but unhealthy looking relationship where you wonder if one of them leans on the other so much cos of something missing in their own life..

I mean, the mum sort of feels beholden to her dd, but in an unhealthy way, like she doesn't want the dd to grow up incase she stops needing her...

Looks like I could fill my place in Cornwall with you lovely lot!

A constant issue I have is having a group of three of us. Quite a lot of my friendships are in a three. It’s not the same if one can’t come. Flaky friend for example, she’s such a lovely person but she talks a lot about her daughter and it turns into a ‘weekend away talking about Annette’ including what sofa Annette has bought, photos of Annette’s new lampshade. Discussion of Annette’s wedding dress. I find it utterly dull. I of course talk about my children but I like to discuss other things, too. She also takes phone calls from Annette probably twice a day, regardless of what we are doing.

She’s done this in restaurants when it’s just been the two of us, she’s on the phone for ages so you feel like a spare part. With another person there, it does break it up a bit.

The more I think about it, the more unhealthy that dynamic is.

This is the patriarchy in action. Women internalise the idea that they must be endlessly self-sacraficing to their care role.

It seems unfair to blame your female friends when it is the structure of society that is at fault. But yes, it is shit and unfair.

I agree OP. In my experience the majority of men don't think about anyone but themselves. Looking after children, housework etc is something they do when they are asked otherwise it's not even on their radar. When they organise a weekend they generally ask their partner but it is with the expectation that the answer will be 'yes'.

However I would say that women are their own worst enemy. Even if they are sahm, their 'job' is 24/7 including weekends, afterall their DP/DH works really long hourse, works hard and provides for them. Women do not see their unpaid work as equal, this coupled with putting everyone above them in the pecking order means they have little time to themselves and it is difficult to organise things.

It's a societal thing and btw I know not all men and women are like this however this is my experience of friends with children.

I think the answer is to organise a weekend away, announce the date and see who comes. The more you try to accommodate the more people faff around.

I think it’s your friends rather than all women tbh. If I arrange to meet my female friend, it’s never more difficult than arranging to meet my male one.

Some people are just flaky. I had a friend like that once and I overheard her being discussed by the hairdressers once when I had an appointment. She’d cancelled two appointments in a row last minute so meant they’d lost quite a lot of money being self employed and all. They were fucked off and I knew at that point the flakiness wasn’t personal, she was just a flake.

I don't have children, and I find that some of my friend groups can be very like this.

One group in particular will arrange meet ups that involve the kids, and when they're there, they mention that their partners are busy gaming together/at football etc.

To be honest, I prefer my friend groups where I'm friends with the couples - since at least the men all come too and the number of people to keep an eye on the kids doubles.

Hmm the more you talk about that one friend, the more that just sounds like a really unhealthy dynamic rather than general flakiness or martyrdom.

When I first met my FIL he was married to an absolutely lovely woman that we all liked very much (his next wife after his divorce from DH's mum). She had this dynamic with her two adult daughters, sometimes when we would go stay with them she would be on the phone with one for an hour, immediately get on the phone with the other one, call the first one back...and then after the entire morning on the phone with them would come out for lunch with us looking like she'd been put through the wringer! She also had to call them both every night to say god knows what, rake over the day, say goodnight. Once we suggested going out to a show or a film and she first had to clear it with both daughters that she wasn't going to be able to phone them both that night. It was bonkers - the daughters were adult professional women living in their own flats in London and would gush about how close they were with their mum, she was their best friend etc but it ended up putting a wedge in every relationship their mum had. The mum didn't seem to enjoy this dynamic either, she was always walking on eggshells not to upset them, and the daughters appeared to be super jealous of the attention the mum paid the other one as well so she had to be 50/50 with everything. FIL eventually split up with her once the daughters had kids because she basically moved in with each daughter on a rolling monthly basis to help them out - I think it was more than a year when he didn't see her almost at all, he asked her to at least split her time between him and them and she couldn't - they got divorced. It was really sad as I think they really loved each other, but she couldn't extricate herself from this toxic entanglement with her adult daughters.

It’s not a gender thing tbh. It’s a flakiness thing.

There are two types of people in this world when it comes to plans.

Those who reply with: ‘yes I’m free, let’s plan something!’ and go ahead with it, or ‘I’m not free then, let’s try another date’

And those who go ‘ohh, I’m not sure what we’re/I’m doing then, let’s see nearer the time’ and never end up arranging anything. If you do pin them down they flake and it inevitably doesn’t happen.

The latter just aren’t arsed about seeing you.

I’ve been using a diary for over a decade, I know exactly whether I’m free or not on any given date in the next year. It’s not difficult, if I can do it anyone can (barring shift workers). If your friend wanted to see you they would see you. They’re keeping their options open in case something better comes along.

Yes that’s exactly what I think my friend will do if/when her daughter has children. The daughter is moving closer to home, probably 40 minutes away.

She recently redecorated her sitting room. Showed me a lovely wallpaper then didn’t use it. When I asked why not, seems Annette vetoed it. Annette still thinks of the family home as her home, even though she has her own place in London.