To be furious with the vet for charging £1000 for an unnecessary operation.

[tentosix]

My SIL just called in tears because their beloved dog will need to be put to sleep because it has widespread cancer.

No pet insurance, but she was happy to pay to cure her dog of a lump over it's eye which was weeping.

The vet did a biopsy and it was secondary cancer so they advised euthanasia.

SIL is distraught. She is taking a few days with the dog and arranged for next week so her DDs can say goodbye and she can process it.

So why did they do this operation to remove the lump? The dog is now in pain because of this raw wound so there is no way he can be comfortable in his last days. The vet must have suspected cancer, so why not a small biopsy and not put the dog through this as well as wasting this money.

The money isn't the issue as it would have been worth every penny if it had cured him. Now he is in pain.

@Veterinari. Sorry, for ranting, but it so upset me to have DSIL sobbing down the phone at losing such a strong link to her late DH and, frankly, the only thing that has given her strength to get up in the morning. ☹️

She says the dog had been listless and snappy for several weeks but SIL’s recent bereavement meant she didn’t really register it. She doesn’t have a specific diagnosis, but the vet said the eye lump was a secondary and that he probably has tumours everywhere.

It’s not the money. She had that put aside, but it’s just a shame they couldn’t detect the cancer without putting him through all this trauma and now he is really miserable. I’m advising her to have him PTS sooner, but she want DD to say goodbye first and support her through it

@littlepattilou we had our dog put down recently. Made the decision on a phone consultation on a Friday and took him in on the Tuesday, he had extra painkillers for the weekend. Vet said it didn't have to be that day and we could spoil him for the weekend with loads of cuddles and treats so we did. He had a long, happy life and we made the decision to pts when we did with his best interests at heart.

OP please contact the Blue Cross Pet Bereavement service (or pass their information on to your family member). They really can help with pet bereavement even if the dog has not been put to sleep yet, and can maybe help your SIL make the right decision. Their number is 0800 096 6606 or you can email them and google their webpage.

I'll just say what I sometimes say to clients in the same position as your SIl.
Better to PTS a day too soon than a day too late. Please support her as you are doing and help her make the right decision sooner rather than later for the dogs sake.
Best wishes.

[quote tentosix]@Veterinari. Sorry, for ranting, but it so upset me to have DSIL sobbing down the phone at losing such a strong link to her late DH and, frankly, the only thing that has given her strength to get up in the morning. ☹️

She says the dog had been listless and snappy for several weeks but SIL’s recent bereavement meant she didn’t really register it. She doesn’t have a specific diagnosis, but the vet said the eye lump was a secondary and that he probably has tumours everywhere.

It’s not the money. She had that put aside, but it’s just a shame they couldn’t detect the cancer without putting him through all this trauma and now he is really miserable. I’m advising her to have him PTS sooner, but she want DD to say goodbye first and support her through it[/quote]
Yep I appreciate it's tough. That doesn't give you the right to refer to our profession as 'idiots' though. Especially when your own ignorance is clear from your posts.

The vet provided your SIL almost immediately with surgery, diagnosis and has given info on prognosis. I totally understand that it's not the outcome any of you want and I'm sorry for that. However blaming the vet for the misfortune of a cancer diagnosis and publicly criticising the very reasonable service they have provided based on your own misguided assumptions isn't remotely helpful to anyone.

Your SIL is in a dreadful situation. But you choosing to start this thread to publicly blame a vet for it, is your choice, and it's not a very decent one.

@justawoman76

OP please contact the Blue Cross Pet Bereavement service (or pass their information on to your family member). They really can help with pet bereavement even if the dog has not been put to sleep yet, and can maybe help your SIL make the right decision. Their number is 0800 096 6606 or you can email them and google their webpage.

Agree Their service is excellent. More info here

www.bluecross.org.uk/pet-bereavement-and-pet-loss

@Daphnise

Vets don't exist as a kind, free service.

They need to make money.

And they certainly do.

True they have to be a viable business. But I think saying vets ‘certainly do’ make money is a little in accurate/makes it sound like vets makes lots of money. I think even experienced vets make £30-40k which considering all have spent at least 5 years (and often 6-8 years) at university and work 12 hour days as well as being on call in the evenings is really not a lot of money especially when you consider the costs of further mandatory CPD and the amount of responsibility vets have. Vet nurses make

Agree with the above.
There is no huge amounts of money to be made for most vets in the profession now, especially as most practices have been taken over or absorbed by the big corporate chains. It is unusual now to find a smaller independent practice or for a new grad to have any hope of one day owning and running their own practice (which I suspect is the only way to earn the larger salary). Just about every vet at my practice owns a second hand car, lives in a rented flat and has little disposable income. It's a lifestyle really misrepresented by the general public who believes they are all making fortunes and driving 4x4s.

That's easy @TooInvested

It's because it's much easier to assassinate the characters of professionals who have committed to trying to trying to provide a quality service than to reflect on whether you may or may not actually be fulfilling your own responsibilities as a pet owner.

The reality is irrelevant - a bit like the OP's laughable analogy of antibiotics in the NHS, and her assumption that it doles them out at cost price - no GP salaries, practice managers, pharmacists or facilities costs involved The assertion that such services are cheaper than those of a private general practice vet with significantly less buying power than the NHS is ludicrous. And the main 'money-saving' component of that veterinary service is in the salaries of the professionals involved.

But if a supposed HCP refuses to understand basic economics and instead to publicly criticise professionals who are tying to help them I'm unsurprised that others on the thread think the same. After all, it's easy to put the boot in anonymously isn't it?

#NOMV

I think it’s a genuine misconception most of the time and I don’t know where it came from (just the fact that fees are high?). James Herriot starts his first book saying how lucky he was to find a job as a vet at all and how every vet job back then had hundreds of applications/vets were unemployed or offering to work for free and pay board. So I don’t think it’s ever been a well paid job? Yet people seem to think that vets play with puppies and kittens 9-5 then drive off to their massive houses. And they seem to think that a highly trained animal lover would look at a sick animal and think “aha if I can convince the owner to let me operate for no reason at all then that’s an extra £1000 straight into my pocket ££££££££” , and this is standard/happening all the time because they can get away with it? And there’s no regulatory body stopping this kind of thing? Really?

James Herriot starts his first book saying how lucky he was to find a job as a vet at all and how every vet job back then had hundreds of applications/vets were unemployed or offering to work for free and pay board.

I just watched the recent remake of All Creatures Great and Small. What a wonderful series, and it portrays vets in a very positive light.

Why did they bring it round from the anesthetic with that prognosis?

Probably because keeping a dog under anaesthesia for several days while you wait for biopsy results isn't really a thing.

Yet they seem to get away with it with pet insurance! £10,000 operation??? Sorry, in the SMALL print, it says you can only claim a maximum of £3,000 in one claim.

The cover of a policy is one of the main things listed on a policy and one of the main things to look for when deciding. It's hardly hidden away in the small print. I always go for a 7k min policy. You can't blame the company for lack of reading the main details.

OP you cannot compare human medicines and procedures with that of animals. There are reasons this was the best option which are already detailed in this thread. It's very sad but the vet is not to blame here. Yes your sisters area might be more expensive for vet care but so will all manner of other things be. The rents will be higher the wages will be more. At least now the dogs prognosis is known and can be dealt with. The dog was likely in more pain than you imagine if it was acting irritably and out of character as they can be very good at hiding it.

Why did they bring it round from the anesthetic with that prognosis?

Probably because keeping a dog under anaesthesia for several days while you wait for biopsy results isn't really a thing. *

I don’t think anyone was suggesting keeping it under anaesthetic for several days. Other option would be PTS on the table. Which would be silly in this case as before the results come back vet wouldn’t have known for sure if it was cancer or not. I personally probably wouldn’t choose to PTS during an operation unless the animal was suffering (in which case why operate at all surely just PTS straight away).

So sorry for the loss of your DBIL and now this horrible news

Regarding the procedure, maybe I haven't understood the order of events properly but is that definitely not standard? Different anatomy I know but I have had a lump removed and they only tested it for cancer after removal - same with a family member (for a lump in a different place). I would hope it is just that they are following procedure, even if in this case perhaps there were arguments not to, rather than it being anything nefarious.

All the best to your family and to the poor pup.

I don’t think anyone was suggesting keeping it under anaesthetic for several days. Other option would be PTS on the table. Which would be silly in this case as before the results come back vet wouldn’t have known for sure if it was cancer or not.

The person I was quoting (bold fail) was suggesting the vet was unethical in not PTS or suggesting PTS on the table knowing the prognosis. I was pointing out - being a bit facetious so apologise for that - that the vet would not know as they would have to wait for biopsy results which take time. I should have just said that really.

But if a supposed HCP refuses to understand basic economics and instead to publicly criticise professionals who are tying to help them

I find it distasteful that the OP is making a living out of sick people. If she really cared about cancer patients she wouldn't expect to get a salary for looking after them, she would do it for free, or even subsidise the cost from her own pocket. After all she expects vets to.

But seriously OP sympathies to you and your SIL. These situations are always horrible. Hope you can help her to come to terms with what's happened. I'm sure her vet will be happy to go over things if knowing why they did what they did would help her to get some closure.

@toodleloooo

So sorry for the loss of your DBIL and now this horrible news

Regarding the procedure, maybe I haven't understood the order of events properly but is that definitely not standard? Different anatomy I know but I have had a lump removed and they only tested it for cancer after removal - same with a family member (for a lump in a different place). I would hope it is just that they are following procedure, even if in this case perhaps there were arguments not to, rather than it being anything nefarious.

All the best to your family and to the poor pup.

It really depends on the case. Sometimes we take cells from a mass (Fine Needle Aspirate or FNA) to check under the microscope to see if its a cyst/lipoma etc). Sometimes we need to send a sample to the lab for histopathology before we can tell for sure what it is. This can be done using a biopsy punch (like a hole punch for tissue/flesh) which leaves a pretty small wound which is then sutured. Other times a larger sample is taken in a small operation. Other times the mass is removed in its entirety THEN sent for histopathology. In a malignant mass, if the 'margins' are free from cancerous cells then it hopefully means we have taken the dangerous tissue out. Other times the margins are not wide enough and we need to go back in and remove more tissue depending on the type of tumour. If the lump is benign this is good, but even these lumps will sometimes have to come off if they are causing a problem due to sheer size or awkward placement or other issues. Sometimes histopathology is never done because the owner refuses it or they cannot afford the lab fees, or because the diagnosis would make no difference. The above is all very simplified by me, but those are the main considerations.