Higher education: Guardian article makes me want to vote Conservative

[Flaymproof]

This opinion piece today is idiotic: amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/may/20/boris-johnson-arts-degrees-conservative-funds
Nobody is trying to ban arts degrees, and everyone can agree they have high value, but there are just too bloody many of them. While they have been up on their pedestal there has been a chronic shortage of STEM graduates and skilled tradespeople which is damaging to the economy. There has also been a shortage of teachers in these fields, which leads to a vicious circle. It's not about encouraging young people into higher paid jobs - that's just a carrot - it's about addressing a real need for certain skills and facing down the twentieth century myth, passed on by parents with their heads in the sand, that it doesn't matter what degree you have, so long as you have one.

Again, lots of different people with lots of different skills, making the world go round. It really is staggering that you don’t get that.

What's staggering is that you think you're making the world go round by writing reports about skills that will be needed, and simultaneously denying that those skills will be needed.

simultaneously denying that those skills will be needed.

Show me where I’ve denied maths skills are needed?

OP you work in IT and you seem to be seeing everything through the prism of IT. Arts graduates may be very good at having a balanced reasonable argument, analysing, they might have excellent communication skills, creativity, presentation skills, knowledge of history, language, anything really. It seems to be lacking in critical thinking skills to say that what you learn on a drama degree is what you could pick up at am dram in terms of transferable skills As for saying those people should all do IT? It wouldn't make for a rounded workforce.

What about this Guardian article about the catastrophe facing current year 13s applying to university this year, in which the government and Gavin Williamson are namechecked as not having helped avert a situation that will be disastrous for those students involved:

www.theguardian.com/education/2021/may/22/top-pupils-rejected-by-universities-in-a-levels-fiasco-fallout

Definitely does not reflect well on Conservatives. For those students involved, particularly the first one mentioned and the Dentistry places (just 43 places offered at one big university for next year) it is life-changingly devastating.

@Iamthewombat

I graduated with a first class degree in an arts subject from one of the best universities in the country.

Can you see that what got you through the door of the Big 4 firm was the fact that your degree was from a good university? I’m ex Big 4. They look for people who have graduated from Oxbridge, Durham, the Russell Group.

You can’t be seriously suggesting that somebody graduating in English from the University of Bedfordshire or the University of Wolverhampton would have the same opportunities? For those people, degree choice is more important than it is for people at top universities, who have many more options.

Although tempted to pursue a PhD, I decided to take up my offer within the Big 4. I completed my chartered accountancy qualification - 15 highly technical exams - without a single fail.

Perhaps things are different now but when I went through those exams, it was pretty rare for candidates to fail any of them, so I’m not sure that this is something to shout about.

My colleagues with STEM degrees struggled to do this despite being better at maths and having bigger egos because of it.

Are you seriously suggesting that your colleagues with STEM degrees were failing professional exams left, right and centre? I very much doubt it. I laughed at your ‘bigger egos’ dig: a bit chippy, are you?

They likewise struggled to perform in the workplace despite apparently being more employable

Now you’ve gone one step further with your anti-STEM crusade: not only do STEM grads have big egos, according to you, not only did they regularly fail their professional exams, but as a category they ‘struggle to perform in the workplace’? Hahahaha.

I was praised for my highly analytical skills and excellent communication ability Really? Did your analytical skills lead you to make childish digs at people with degrees in subjects that clearly make you feel inferior?

I am absolutely a bit chippy about this. I spent my first two weeks in professional college listening to people asking me if I needed help turning my calculator on. Particularly memorable was when someone asked where I went to uni, I answered, they asked what subject, and they laughed and said “well, that doesn’t count then”. People only shut up when I got one of the highest marks in our initial (albeit very easy) papers.

And to answer your other remarks, I’m one of very few people in my service line to make it through the exams without a single fail. Plenty of Russell group STEM degrees in my service line. It is, of course, possible that the demands of professional qualifications have changed. Finally, I am amused that one arts student standing up for their skills and value in the workplace is making you this defensive. I’m telling you my experience, and your only response is that it can’t possibly be true, which says a lot about the superiority complex that STEM grads have about their degrees.

OP you work in IT and you seem to be seeing everything through the prism of IT.

No, I've worked in various sectors, including Higher Education, Telecoms, Utilities, Defence, Finance and I've also been a school governor for many years.

Many people share my opinion, including, it seems, the current government. Let's see if they deliver on it.

But don't worry - arts and humanities degrees will still exist - it is just a necessary re-balancing of the funding arrangements so our little country can do it's best to compete in the world without having to import so many skills from elsewhere.

But don't worry - arts and humanities degrees will still exist - it is just a necessary re-balancing of the funding arrangements so our little country can do it's best to compete in the world without having to import so many skills from elsewhere.

We all know the reality is that they will become more the preserve of the wealthy. I'm surprised by your attitude to arts subjects since you worked in Higher Education but maybe you taught IT or a STEM subject!

which says a lot about the superiority complex that STEM grads have about their degrees

In the kindest way possible, you need to get over your inferiority complex about your degree.

Presumably you have been a qualified chartered accountant for many years. You shouldn’t need to ‘stand up for your skills and value in the workplace’ if you have proved yourself professionally to the extent that nobody cares what your degree was in.

The fact that you feel that you have to keep having a dig at STEM graduates, even years after you graduated (“big egos”, “struggled to perform in the workplace”, “superiority complex” etc) and that you feel the need to tell us that you could have done a PhD and that you passed the professional exams, like most candidates do (“I’m dead clever me, honest!”) suggests otherwise.

So what if somebody teased you about switching your calculator on when you started training? It was years ago. Get over it! I don’t know why you are hanging on to resentment over something so trivial.

This would result HE reverting back to being the privilege of the elite.

No it wouldn't. It would revert back to being the privilege of the intelligent and academically able. As indeed it should be.

What about this Guardian article about the catastrophe facing current year 13s applying to university this year, in which the government and Gavin Williamson are namechecked as not having helped avert a situation that will be disastrous for those students involved:

Agreed. Students have been so badly failed by this government, missing education, the exams fiasco, now universities not fully returning to in person learning while charging the same fees. Students facing university life in front of a laptop is something that requires urgent intervention. There is also likely to be an impact students starting in 2022 due to number of deferred places this year. These things are what Gavin Williamson needs to be addressing urgently not looking for headline grabbing policies without much substance.

@SilverGlitterBaubles

What about this Guardian article about the catastrophe facing current year 13s applying to university this year, in which the government and Gavin Williamson are namechecked as not having helped avert a situation that will be disastrous for those students involved:

Agreed. Students have been so badly failed by this government, missing education, the exams fiasco, now universities not fully returning to in person learning while charging the same fees. Students facing university life in front of a laptop is something that requires urgent intervention. There is also likely to be an impact students starting in 2022 due to number of deferred places this year. These things are what Gavin Williamson needs to be addressing urgently not looking for headline grabbing policies without much substance.

The fuckups have been unforgivable

@Iamthewombat

which says a lot about the superiority complex that STEM grads have about their degrees

In the kindest way possible, you need to get over your inferiority complex about your degree.

Presumably you have been a qualified chartered accountant for many years. You shouldn’t need to ‘stand up for your skills and value in the workplace’ if you have proved yourself professionally to the extent that nobody cares what your degree was in.

The fact that you feel that you have to keep having a dig at STEM graduates, even years after you graduated (“big egos”, “struggled to perform in the workplace”, “superiority complex” etc) and that you feel the need to tell us that you could have done a PhD and that you passed the professional exams, like most candidates do (“I’m dead clever me, honest!”) suggests otherwise.

So what if somebody teased you about switching your calculator on when you started training? It was years ago. Get over it! I don’t know why you are hanging on to resentment over something so trivial.

Au contraire - when you assume (or indeed presume) you make an ass out of you and me. I am delighted to hear you seem to know me and my personal circs better than I do! I’ll take a welcome break from being me, so you can take over.

I finished my professional qualification within the last 12 months. This teasing was not ‘years ago’, it is ongoing, and that’s why it matters to me! I think it’s important for arts grads to not be considered a nuisance or a waste of space when we have a lot to offer across the board.

This isn’t about me. I offered another example of someone I know flourishing in an atypical career with an arts background. I just want to put an end to the negative language used about arts degrees and arts students.

My view on this is that you have to allow people to play to their strengths. I am not good at science and would never have been any good at science. There would have been no use me doing science A levels, getting EEE at best and doing a fourth rate degree at a third rate university. I was a lot more use to society doing law and languages and working in reasonably paid jobs all my life paying a decent amount of tax. If I had got a 3rd class degree in science I am not sure what I would have done but probably nothing very useful.

I agree we have too many graduates and not enough tradespeople - but again, you have to play to peoples' strengths - if someone is academic and no good with their hands, they won't be any use as a plumber or roofer.

It's also massively hypocritical of the government as if you look any of them up, they all did arts and social science degrees. Theresa May is about as close as it gets to science, as she did geography (I know Maggie Thatcher did chemistry, but that was a long time ago now). Definitely a case of do as I say and not as I did.

I’ll add ‘grow up’ to the recommendation in that case.

Seriously, lose the chip on your shoulder if you want to build a good career in finance.

No it wouldn't. It would revert back to being the privilege of the intelligent and academically able. As indeed it should be

How is it reverting back because it never was that, it was always for the privileged, the upper middle classes and rich and private school people

It may tell you who they hire, but not who they would like to hire, or the impact of not being able to hire them. Behind the scenes they are telling the government that they want to hire people with better skills. That is well documented

Employers need to get off their lazy arses and provide training themselves. Some do. They have the competitive advantage.

Williamson isn't fit to run a bath, after his disasters over the last year OP I can't believe that he is actually still in the job. In any other world he would have been sacked for incompetence.

Williamson isn't fit to run a bath, after his disasters over the last year OP I can't believe that he is actually still in the job. In any other world he would have been sacked for incompetence

Yes constantly amazed that he is still in post after the exams cock up of last year, let alone everything else. Also that he's got the arrogance to think he can now reform HE and solve a problem which doesn't exist, when he can't even solve problems which do exist

No it wouldn't. It would revert back to being the privilege of the intelligent and academically able. As indeed it should be.

It never has been this. Ever.

It never has been this. Ever.

Exactly. The naivety is something else.

@battenburgwithtea

Williamson isn't fit to run a bath, after his disasters over the last year OP I can't believe that he is actually still in the job. In any other world he would have been sacked for incompetence

Yes constantly amazed that he is still in post after the exams cock up of last year, let alone everything else. Also that he's got the arrogance to think he can now reform HE and solve a problem which doesn't exist, when he can't even solve problems which do exist

Him and gove

Utter twats

I was a tory voter a fair while back, but it will be a cold day in hell if i ever vote for them again

(Dunno why its a cold day in hell...milton deffo had it a cold and hot day in hell)

@SunflowersAndLavender

This would result HE reverting back to being the privilege of the elite.

No it wouldn't. It would revert back to being the privilege of the intelligent and academically able. As indeed it should be.

Could you give me a date when this was the case? Certainly not in either my or my parents’ lifetime.

@TheKeatingFive

It never has been this. Ever.

Exactly. The naivety is something else.

It's amazing that people actually believe that this was ever the case!

Him and gove

Gove is a swear word in our house.

Thank you for explaining @irresistibleoverwhelm; it's interesting to see where the differences come from.