AIBU to think that child maintenance is actually very unfair to the RP?

[ECJW]

Just a thought I had due to speaking to my ex about costs for our DD and it hit me, NRP only have to give up a certain % of their incomes a week even though they don’t have to think about or incur any of the day to day costs of having children...

AIBU to think that it’s unfair that RP gets the brunt of paying for most of these things?

It occurred to me that even if ex paid £180 a month that it would only be covering DD’s packed lunches and a couple of extra bits and that’s it... that’s without normal groceries for her, drinks, clothes she might need, shoes she might need, school costs, activities and everything else...

Just out of curiosity, what do you think is an appropriate amount of child maintenance for one child when NRP has no other children to support?

It would be actually interesting to ask what people think is a reasonable average "child package" is

You weren’t shot down but there is no perfect answer. It might include smart watches and movie tickets for you, but for someone born and raised in poverty who then has children with someone else born and raised in poverty it’s going to be very different, than white collar families. Values and priorities differ. I’m not bothered about designer clothes for my DC, DSS’ mum wouldn’t let him be seen dead in Asda’s own. I value swimming and sport, she doesn’t. You could have a list of “possible” essentials and some parents would tick them all and others none. Some people are savers vs spenders. It’s not that simple.

The child maintenance I receive doesn't even pay for the school bus pass.

@DinoHat

It would be actually interesting to ask what people think is a reasonable average "child package" is

You weren’t shot down but there is no perfect answer. It might include smart watches and movie tickets for you, but for someone born and raised in poverty who then has children with someone else born and raised in poverty it’s going to be very different, than white collar families. Values and priorities differ. I’m not bothered about designer clothes for my DC, DSS’ mum wouldn’t let him be seen dead in Asda’s own. I value swimming and sport, she doesn’t. You could have a list of “possible” essentials and some parents would tick them all and others none. Some people are savers vs spenders. It’s not that simple.

My point is that those "average" calculations are already well established in other areas - for example, pensions are indexed relative to an average inflation index calculated in respect of goods and services that may or may not, or even could not, be used by every pensioner.

For example - one extracurricular activity a week at say £40/hour is OK, five is clearly excessive. Two pair of shoes per term is ok, twenty is excessive. A cost of a nutritious packed lunch is probably somewhere around school lunch cost - so say £2.50/ day. There should be a reasonable average number for every expense.

Well there is - 12% of NRP salary, but we’ve established these average calculations don’t work.

You can’t plan for everything but given the high instances of failed marriages it seems sensible to plan for that
Threads from rp who struggle or those who are planning to leave but don’t know how they’d cope financially usually have more than 2 children.

It makes sense. The biggest struggle is paying full time childcare. Once the kids are at school ft, even if needing after school, it normally pays to work ft if you have 1 or 2 children. When you have 3 or more, you need to earn a manager income to make it worth it.

I’ve always believe that having 3 children was quite a risk if the relationship fails and considering it does in almost 50% of the time, it does question the responsibility of parents who decide to have more.

@DinoHat

Well there is - 12% of NRP salary, but we’ve established these average calculations don’t work.

This is just a relative calculation, with NRP's and not the child's needs in focus. I'd be interested in what it covers. So from the average UK salary of £29K the NRP will be paying £387 for two children (also average) / month in a situation where there's no overnights. It is equivalent to the cost of a weekly music lesson each and a school lunch.

It would be actually interesting to ask what people think is a reasonable average "child package" is
I worked it out when my kids were young and for two it came to £650.

Half of that was childcare after help from tax credits (very little). Then 50% of mortgage as otherwise Id have a small 2 bed flat as ex did. Half electricity, gas, food, took into consideration petrol and car as would otherwise have a smaller (as I do have now they are grown up).

Add clothes (supermarket bought), school trips, party presents, activities ( 2 each a week), equipment for these activities, and every other one off costs, that was about it.

I never got a penny and only £45 a month tax credits.

It would be actually interesting to ask what people think is a reasonable average "child package" is

It's different for every child. I have three. One of them has a disability. He costs way more than the other two. I don't think you can put a figure on it except in terms of the price of an average plate of food, school uniform, a few books and toys, haircuts, shoes. But even that varies because some of us will cut our children's hair, for example, and others will take them to the most expensive hairdresser they can find. What you ideally want is a child who is not seeing their stronger parent financially lording it over the weaker one. Rather, bringing up the children from a financial perspective is a joint enterprise - which is essentially why the % of income calculation by the CMS is as good as it's going to get. It ensures that all NRP pay the same in relation to their incomes (and I say 'all' with my tongue firmly in cheek because I know it doesn't work like that in the real world).

I do think that the system isn't particularly fair to lower earning NRPs and can cause hardship post-separation and divorce. I know several men who have struggled to move on in terms of buying property, or even being able to rent as a single person, and having that safe space they can take their children too. I don't think that relieves them of their responsibilities towards their children but I do think there is some kind of argument for lower earners to receive some kind of tax back incentive or benefits of some kind.

I haven't received maintenance from my ex in over 10 years. It has certainly been difficult but I earn well so it could be worse for us. I think the ex hates that - I was a SAHM when he walked and I think he believed the courts would just hand the children to him and I would never be allowed to see them again. I am still not sure he's come to terms with it. He's certainly very bitter - hence the withholding of maintenance. It's just a feeble attempt at control but he knows I don't need his money.

You just cannot put a figure on it.

You can't average it because across the country things cost v different amounts and wages are vastly different.

I could say well I pay 7.50 a day after school club, and rugby club is £30 a season plus a donation. Clothes are probably about £50 every 6 months. And so I would require very little maintenance because my child doesn't cost very much to run with the above plus food.

But a preschooler in ft nursery in london, or a teenager with an expensive hobby who has to get two busses to school will cost a lot different.

You can pick a figure out of the sky but It won't help anyone.

@Getyourarseofffthequattro

You just cannot put a figure on it.

You can't average it because across the country things cost v different amounts and wages are vastly different.

I could say well I pay 7.50 a day after school club, and rugby club is £30 a season plus a donation. Clothes are probably about £50 every 6 months. And so I would require very little maintenance because my child doesn't cost very much to run with the above plus food.

But a preschooler in ft nursery in london, or a teenager with an expensive hobby who has to get two busses to school will cost a lot different.

You can pick a figure out of the sky but It won't help anyone.

So... You'd have the same size house without kids? Drive the same size car and use as much petrol? As much heating and electricity? And you don't need to send your child to school holiday club, or buy presents at Christmas and New year, or have a laptop or other device for them to do homework on? How can it be £50 every six months for clothes - if they're playing rugby they're surely likely to need at minimum 3 pairs of shoes (school, trainers, studs), and would likely outgrow these during a year... That alone would be more than £50 for most of us, let alone the kit plus school wear and everything else. How does £7.50 of after school care cover you when you said you work 8-8? I think you're drastically underestimating the costs.

It doesn't help if people forget the details that add up, or throw their hands up and say it's all different. It's at least possible to look at a bare minimum, for those who are above minimum wage to pay, for example. As it stands, a man on the UK average wage of £34k with 2 kids staying less than one night a week over the year (i.e. not providing a meaningful residence at his own place) would be paying £450 a month for two DCs. Even if you have a magical solution for morning and school holiday childcare, you'll still be spending £300 a month of that money on just after school club, by the time you pay for housing and more you'll be covering far more than 50%.

What really annoys me too is that men who don't pay cm or who pay the CMS minimums but don't do anything more to support their DCs are not only sponging off their exes and often reducing their children's quality of life, they're sponging off us all. Our taxes end up paying out far more in benefits and housing than necessary. I don't understand how this isn't a true cross-party issue, it should get half of us fired up about social justice and the other half by minimising the benefit load. It says a lot about how single mothers are perceived in some areas that this hasn't happened already.

Our taxes end up paying out far more in benefits and housing than necessary.

Income from maintenance isn’t taken into account for benefits. Don’t kid yourself that people won’t claim if there isn’t a pressing need.

So... You'd have the same size house without kids?

Yes I bought a four bed house before I had a child

Drivee the same size car and use as much petrol?

Yes I drive a small hybrid.

As much heating and electricity?

Well maybe less electric but heating? No I like to be warm as well.

And you don't need to send your child to school holiday club, or buy presents at Christmas and New year, or have a laptop or other device for them to do homework on?

Yes I do, holiday club as mentioned previously is £25 a day.

How can it be £50 every six months for clothes - if they're playing rugby they're surely likely to need at minimum 3 pairs of shoes (school, trainers, studs), and would likely outgrow these during a year... That alone would be more than £50 for most of us, let alone the kit plus school wear and everything else.

He is 5. Clothes for a five-year old aren't expensive. Rugby training doesn't require boots at 5. It's not serious yet.

How does £7.50 of after school care cover you when you said you work 8-8?

I don't work 8 til 8

and have never said that? I think you're drastically underestimating the costs

Of my own child whom I pay for and whom you know fuck all about? Okay.

It doesn't help if people forget the details that add up, or throw their hands up and say it's all different.

What?

I mean the rest of that was irrelevant because no matter how much you insist you can create an average, you can't. Well you could, but it would be a pointless bullshit figure. If it was so simple, they'd have done it.

You're also kidding yourself that it would cut the benefits bill.

@Getyourarseofffthequattro

Absolutely it would cut the benefits bill. There are women who could and would work if they could afford childcare, via a fair contribution, men stepping up to take on more care, or fathers actually paying their cm. There are NRPs out there owing £4 billion in back payments, and many more who are taking cash in hand so they are not only leaving their exes relying on the state, but they are avoiding their share of tax.

Do you actually know many single parents who aren't extremely wealthy? Because you must see how your lifestyle, with a 4 bed house before DCs (which, by the way, doesn't insulate anyone from having housing issues after a split - my 4 bed was sold to release equity and ex got over a 50% split because I am the higher earner), and two parents who work full time but also somehow only need after school care club at £7.50 a time... It's so so far from even the typical intact family and a million miles from most separated parents, even privileged ones. So when you keep bringing it back to your life and circumstances, it's totally irrelevant to the children and women actually needing help, or even to the lucky ones like me who are able to afford everything alone but still end up with a very unfair outcome. It's derailing discussion of something that is a massive driver of child poverty and gender inequality and is ruining people's lives, not just an interesting debate where you can show how your privilege and good fortune would keep you from being stuck like other people.

I literally never said there could be an average. But there can be a minimum, for all but those unemployed / on benefits, and the current numbers are too low and rarely enforced.

I wouldn't have the same size house if I didn't have DS. I'd live in a 1 bedroom flat and save myself some money, as it is I need 2 bedrooms.

parents who work full time but also somehow only need after school care club at £7.50 a time... It's so so far from even the typical intact family

It’s not that far from the typical family I know. Wrap around care is around £12 p/day at my local school which takes you from 7.45-6pm. A lot of people work 9-5 type roles. Not everyone is a high flyer working 10+ hours per day.

Childminding is 4.25 an hour.

I do not live in an impoverished area.

Early years care is £56 p/day, but that’s only a v short period of time for most people and drops drastically when the child turns 3.

[quote OverTheRubicon]@Getyourarseofffthequattro

Absolutely it would cut the benefits bill. There are women who could and would work if they could afford childcare, via a fair contribution, men stepping up to take on more care, or fathers actually paying their cm. There are NRPs out there owing £4 billion in back payments, and many more who are taking cash in hand so they are not only leaving their exes relying on the state, but they are avoiding their share of tax.

Do you actually know many single parents who aren't extremely wealthy? Because you must see how your lifestyle, with a 4 bed house before DCs (which, by the way, doesn't insulate anyone from having housing issues after a split - my 4 bed was sold to release equity and ex got over a 50% split because I am the higher earner), and two parents who work full time but also somehow only need after school care club at £7.50 a time... It's so so far from even the typical intact family and a million miles from most separated parents, even privileged ones. So when you keep bringing it back to your life and circumstances, it's totally irrelevant to the children and women actually needing help, or even to the lucky ones like me who are able to afford everything alone but still end up with a very unfair outcome. It's derailing discussion of something that is a massive driver of child poverty and gender inequality and is ruining people's lives, not just an interesting debate where you can show how your privilege and good fortune would keep you from being stuck like other people.

I literally never said there could be an average. But there can be a minimum, for all but those unemployed / on benefits, and the current numbers are too low and rarely enforced.[/quote]
Go on then, what's your minimum?

The minimum is totally irrelevant if it doesn’t correspond to people’s salary...

And for me, where we live our situation is very average, and infact we are worse off than many friends who pay £0 for childcare because grandparents

@Getyourarseofffthequattro

And for me, where we live our situation is very average, and infact we are worse off than many friends who pay £0 for childcare because grandparents

Tbf both my DSS’ Mum and siblings have £0 childcare costs because my PIL and their/my parents help them. It’s only because I am younger and had my DC later (thereby last to the queue) that my childcare bill is so high!

This is what can be really frustrating in these posts. People telling other people how much their kids are costing them and not accepting that circumstances differ vastly from one person to the next. Even in my family - I’m the only sucker paying for early years childcare.

DSS’ Mum tries to do the same like my DC are mystical beings who are unusually cheap to run!

My child really doesn't cost me much, but when he was in ft nursery he did.

For me, it has to be individual. It's no use saying there's a minimum because for someone that minimum will be their entire wage or more for a variety of reasons.

As I said before there needs to be a big change before this could happen anyway. Childcare needs to be cheaper (and yes I would be happy to pay higher taxes for that) for a start off.

Tbh for me there's a lot to be said for being a second wife. I've seen how my dp acts as a seperated dad. Ive seen how he treats his child, his ex, what he pays, how he acts. It is not and likely never will be an issue for me. Although yes people can change and for that reason I went back to work ft, we both take the same amount of time off for childcare/illness and whatever else.

I grew up with a single mum and a dad who paid nothing and there is no way in hell I wasn't going to be prepared for that eventuality. No, nobody should have to do this, of course. But I still did.

£12 wrap around care? £4.50 an hour for a childminder?

Unbelievable how much cheaper life is in some areas of the UK compared to others!

Yanbu op
It's worse this time of year when I have to think about uniforms for September, cross of keeping them occupied etc in school holidays, days out during the summer months.

I also have children with Sen and sensory food issues, my food bills are astronomical

@vivainsomnia

£12 wrap around care? £4.50 an hour for a childminder?

Unbelievable how much cheaper life is in some areas of the UK compared to others!

It’s not really, I’m not up North or in the cheapest part of the UK. Once you start coming down from London everything is drastically cheaper - but not unbelievably so.