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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

When will the cycle of suffering end? Israel/Palestine

104 replies

HeartBrake · 19/05/2021 14:41

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-57142627

Aibu to believe that there are no winners here Sad

The misery continues.

OP posts:
PlanDeRaccordement · 20/05/2021 15:49

@Thehistorygirls

To speed things up, I'll help you out. When two sides are both killing each other, that is not usually a genocide, it's more often called 'a war'. The Palestinian leadership have, under various guises spent the last however many years blowing up innocent Israeli citizens on buses, in restaurants, in nightclubs. The most recent leadership have called for their total annihilation. So unless you believe this is a two-sided attempted genocide, it's not a genocide. It is a war, in which you believe the Israeli side are committing war crimes. But that is very different from a genocide.
Don’t be ridiculous. The US genocided the native Americans despite them fighting back and killing settlers and wagon trains. Genocide isn’t being killed without defending yourself or doing small counter attacks at all. It’s when one side completely massacres the other side.
Thehistorygirls · 20/05/2021 15:55

No, actually it is "the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group." There is significant evidence that this is Hamas's stated aim in relation to Jews, there is much less evidence that the Israeli government is attempting to do this to Palestinians. The fact that many innocent civilians have been killed does not equal genocide. I'm assuming you don't believe that Hiroshima and Nagasaki were genocide?

PlanDeRaccordement · 20/05/2021 16:07

There is significant evidence that this is Hamas's stated aim in relation to Jews, there is much less evidence that the Israeli government is attempting to do this to Palestinians

That is not correct. Hamas supports the creation of a Palestinian state alongside the state of Israel, not their destruction. The reason Israel rejects this is because Hamas want the borders to be placed as they were in 1967. Which would require Israeli invaders and settlers to pull back.

The evidence of genocide is in the number of dead Palestinians killed by Israelis vs the number of dead Israelis by Palestinians. What you have is a ratio of 130 dead Palestinians for every dead Israeli. And these are not fighting age men and women as you’d see in an actual war with combat zones,, but people of all ages, civilians from infants to old age.

Article 2 of the UN Genocide Convention (see:The UN Genocide Convention ) states:

“In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such: a) Killing members of the group; b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group”.

Using the latest available UN Agency data we can systematically analyze these UN Genocide Convention points thus.

“Intent to destroy in whole or in part” – sustained (and frequently asserted) intent over about 150 years of the Zionist colonial project; 0.75 million Palestinian refugees in 1948; currently 7 million Palestinian refugees, and 4.2 million Palestinian refugees registered with the UN in the Middle East; over 40 years of illegal Israeli Occupation of the West Bank and Gaza; 0.1 million 1948-2011 violent Palestinian deaths, post-1967 excess deaths 0.3 million; post-1967 under-5 infant deaths 0.2 million; 3,600 under-5 year old Occupied Palestinian Territory (OPT) infants die avoidably EACH YEAR in the OPT “Prison” due to Apartheid Israeli war crimes.a) Killing – about 5,100,000 Palestinians killed since 1948; post-1967 excess deaths 0.3 million; post-1967 under-5 infant deaths 0.2 million; 3,600 under-5 year old Occupied Palestinian Territory (OPT) infants die avoidably EACH YEAR in the OPT “Prison” due to Israeli ignoring of the Geneva Convention; 254 OPT Palestinians killed by the Israeli military in the LAST 2 MONTHS OF 2008 ALONE, 301 killed thus last year (latest UNRWA data; see above).

b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm – see (a) and the shocking UNICEF reports of the appalling conditions psychologically scarring OPT children:| At a glance: State of Palestine | UNICEF .

(c) Conditions to cause destruction in whole or in part – see (a) and (b); Professor Noam Chomsky describes the OPT as a highly abusive “Prison”; others use the valid term “Concentration Camp” and make parallels with the Warsaw Ghetto; one has to turn to US-guarded Vietnamese hamlets and the Nazi era atrocities to see routine, horrendously violent and deadly military policing of civilian concentration camps.

(d) Measures intended to prevent births – see (a), (b), and (c) above; dozens of pregnant women dying at road blocks; other killing of pregnant Palestinian women; huge infant mortality in the OPT with the Occupier in gross violation of the Geneva Convention.

(e) Forcible transferring of children – irreversible transferring by killing of children – 0.2 million post-invasion infant deaths; 27 OPT children violently killed in the LAST WEEK ALONE; mass imprisonment of 2 million OPT children; hundreds of Palestinian children in abusive Israeli high-security prisons in Israel; forcible separation of families by racist Israeli Apartheid Laws, marriage laws and immigration laws.

HeartBrake · 20/05/2021 16:24

Thank you PlanDeRaccordement,

It is a sickening read.

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HeartBrake · 20/05/2021 16:32

I hope the ICC prosecutes the perpetrators of war crimes.

(The ICC, based in The Hague, is an independent, permanent war crimes court that succeeded ad hoc U.N. tribunals which tackled the 1990s Rwandan genocide and Yugoslav conflict. It prosecutes individuals, not countries, when a member state is unwilling or unable to do so itself.)

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Thehistorygirls · 20/05/2021 16:33

@planderaccordement - have you read the Hamas charter? I'm not sure which bit of it you think isn't calling for the destruction of Israel and the removal of all its Jews? You genuinely believe that Hamas supports a two-state solution using the 1967 borders? Please point me to the bit of their charter that makes this clear.

PlanDeRaccordement · 20/05/2021 18:13

[quote Thehistorygirls]@planderaccordement - have you read the Hamas charter? I'm not sure which bit of it you think isn't calling for the destruction of Israel and the removal of all its Jews? You genuinely believe that Hamas supports a two-state solution using the 1967 borders? Please point me to the bit of their charter that makes this clear.[/quote]
Oh, that 1977 document written by fringe militants that has long been superseded by more reasonable Hamas leadership? Yes I’ve read it.

But since 2012, Hamas has supported the two state solution.

nationalinterest.org/blog/paul-pillar/hamas-the-two-state-solution-7779
“Hamas has repeatedly made clear that it will support the establishment of a Palestinian state limited to the 22 percent of the mandate of Palestine that would be represented by the 1967 borders, provided that such a settlement is approved by a majority of Palestinians in a referendum. The land swaps that are generally recognized as being necessary to accommodate some of the facts that Israel has established on the ground since 1967 represent a small step from that formula, as long as the 1967 borders are taken as the starting point for any such trades.

And yet the government of Israel, and Americans who sing that government's tune, and much of the American media habitually describe Hamas and the objectives of Hamas as something much different. The usual formula is something like “Hamas is dedicated to the destruction of Israel.” Attempts to substantiate such a description often point to Hamas not having formally recognized Israel and its right to exist. Well, it hasn't, but neither has Israel recognized any right of Hamas to exist (even after Hamas won a free all-Palestinian election). Not only that, but Israel has done everything it can to try to squeeze Hamas out of existence, going to the extreme of collectively punishing the population of the Gaza Strip in an unsuccessful effort to do so. It is Israel that appears to be dedicated to the destruction of Hamas. Why should Hamas be expected to bestow the first recognition, gratis, under such circumstances?”

But if you don’t like my source, then Israel National News also reported this
www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/164759

“Hamas’s political chief Khaled Mashaal has apparently expressed his support for a two-state solution to end the Israeli-Arab conflict, the Saudi Al-Sharq newspaper reported on Wednesday.

According to the report, which was based on comments from Jordanian officials, during a meeting this week with Jordan’s King Abdullah II, Mashaal expressed his organization’s support for an agreement that would see the establishment of an independent Palestinian state based on the pre-1967 borders.

Mashaal asked King Abdullah to inform U.S. President Barack Obama that his organization supports the two-state solution, the Jordanian officials told Al-Sharq. The king is expected to convey the message to Obama in a meeting scheduled for the end of February, the report said.”

But that solution is dying now....Tamara Cofman Wittes, Senior Fellow, Foreign Policy, Center on Middle East Policy. Writes:
“This is what the death of the two-state solution looks like.
The current unravelling has its roots in the political dysfunction of both Israel’s party system and the Palestinian national movement’s decayed one-party dictatorship. But the precipitating event was the move by Israel’s government, last spring, to include annexation of West Bank territory in its coalition agreement, pending the resolution of the urgent COVID-19 pandemic.”
www.brookings.edu/blog/order-from-chaos/2021/05/14/this-is-what-the-death-of-the-two-state-solution-looks-like/

StoneofDestiny · 20/05/2021 19:38

Impressive interview given by Palestinian Ambassadors to the UK on Channel 4 news tonight.

HeartBrake · 20/05/2021 20:22

StoneofDestiny,

Is the interview available online? Would love to watch.

OP posts:
StoneofDestiny · 20/05/2021 21:51

I'm sure you find it on catch up. He got a great grilling and was absolutely direct and spoke convincingly with conviction. A very clever man (I believe he has a PhD from London Uni?)

StoneofDestiny · 20/05/2021 21:54

@HeartBrake it's on u tube
Try this
mobile.twitter.com/krishgm/status/1395426236193718277

StoneofDestiny · 20/05/2021 21:56

@HartBrake
Type Channel 4 interview with Palestinian Ambassador into google and the u tube video comes up

MissyB1 · 20/05/2021 22:19

@StoneofDestiny

Impressive interview given by Palestinian Ambassadors to the UK on Channel 4 news tonight.
Yes I watched it too, excellent interview. We always watch channel 4 news as we find them much less biased than BBC.

Israel’s actions are sickening and heartless Angry

HeartBrake · 20/05/2021 22:20

Followed instructions and found something on Husam Zumlot??

Off to watch….

OP posts:
HeartBrake · 20/05/2021 22:34

Wow, just watched the interview. He was brilliant, fair and reasonable.
I wonder how the israeli ambassador was. Off to google.

OP posts:
StoneofDestiny · 20/05/2021 22:51

Yes @MissyB1B1, we are a Channel 4 news household now

HeartBrake · 20/05/2021 23:55

Watched the israeli ambassador interview on channel 4 and sky.
It came across rehearsed and disingenuous.
With the sky interview, she repeated the same rehearsed lines.
I was cringing when she started praising USA as an ally. It was embarrassing to watch.

OP posts:
StoneofDestiny · 21/05/2021 00:15

I was cringing when she started praising USA as an ally

Highly predictable, she won't bite the hand that provides arms to Israel.

ResIpsaLoquiturInterAlia · 21/05/2021 00:26

Possibly when the USA and Iran are not interested in their proxy wars anymore? Or both sides destroy each other?

ResIpsaLoquiturInterAlia · 21/05/2021 01:37

Israel and Hamas agree Gaza truce, Biden pledges assistance

www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/hamas-official-predicts-ceasefire-soon-israel-gaza-fight-goes-2021-05-19/

Biden applauds Gaza ceasefire agreement between Israel and Hamas

www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/5/20/biden-applauds-israel-gaza-ceasefire

KaptainKaveman · 21/05/2021 09:49

Thanks for those detailed posts PlanDeRaccordement. They prove that the lies spread by the apologists and supporters of apartheid are just that - lies and propoganda.

The continuously shrinking borders and theft of Palestinian land/farms etc are proof of Israel's determination to eradicate the Palestinians. Only a racist would deny this. They aren't stealing land from Jewish people, are they? only Muslims.

HeartBrake · 21/05/2021 11:35

BLM tweeted a few days ago:

“Black Lives Matter stands in solidarity with Palestinians. We are a movement committed to ending settler colonialism in all forms and will continue to advocate for Palestinian liberation.”

OP posts:
PlanDeRaccordement · 21/05/2021 14:20

@KaptainKaveman
Thank you. And it’s obvious to many observers that Israel is not doing anything to avoid civilian casualties. See this report.

“Without warning, an Israeli air strike destroyed the four-storey building in the Gaza Strip where Dr Ayman Abu al-Ouf lived early on Sunday.
The doctor, who was head of internal medicine at the Palestinian territory's main hospital, was killed along with 12 members of his extended family. They included his mother and father, his wife Reem, and their 17-year-old son Tawfik and 12-year-old-daughter Tala.”

“Dr Abu al-Ouf had left the hospital only around an hour before the strike that levelled his home on Gaza City's al-Wahda street, which is lined with apartment buildings and shops.

The Israeli military said it had "struck an underground military structure" belonging to the militant group Hamas, which controls Gaza, beneath the street. "The underground foundations collapsed, causing the civilian housing above them to collapse, causing unintended casualties," it added.

Dr Abu al-Ouf was buried under the rubble for almost 12 hours, but was alive for five to six hours, according to one of the doctors he trained, Haya Agha. His father's body was only recovered 48 hours after their home collapsed.”

*There wasn’t anything under the apartment buildings.

www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-57148580

When will the cycle of suffering end? Israel/Palestine
When will the cycle of suffering end? Israel/Palestine
HeartBrake · 21/05/2021 16:38

And this is what they claim to be pin point precision.

In reality, its Indiscriminate murder.

OP posts:
UnculturedSwine · 21/05/2021 16:51

Israeli forces have stormed the Al-Aqsa mosque compound again, firing rubber bullets, stun grenades and tear gas at worshippers.