When will the cycle of suffering end? Israel/Palestine

[HeartBrake]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-57142627

Aibu to believe that there are no winners here

The misery continues.

LizzieMacQueen,

I don’t know the answer to your question, but hope someone more knowledgeable can shed some light. What I do know and am heartened by, is that opinions are changing and rightly so….no person with an ounce of humanity, having seen the carnage and oppression afflicted on the palestinians by netanyahu, would still try to justify the murderous tactics.

@LizzieMacQueen, this is a very basic description but the Jewish population in Palestine grew rapidly from from around 5-8% in the 1880s whilst under Ottoman rule to 32% by 1947 under the British Mandate, according to various sources.

This was due to the emergence of modern Zionism in the late 19th century in Central and Eastern Europe as a national revival movement, both in reaction to persecution (pogroms) and as I read ‘a response to Haskalah, or Jewish Enlightenment.’ I imagine awful persecution was the driving force. In Zionist history, the different waves of Jewish settlement since 1880s are known as "aliyah".

Probably never. What has it got to do with uk and usa?

Just seen an article on sky news.

The sky correspondent Alex Rossi is quite scathing about netanyahu and starts by writing:

‘ Israel's Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu says the military has been going to "unprecedented lengths" to prevent civilian deaths’

Then the sky correspondent continues his article with the following line in bold.

Closed off to the world, Gaza is being bombed into submission

The palestinians cannot escape Gaza. This is murderous oppression.

Full article here: news.sky.com/story/israel-gaza-conflict-girls-killed-in-airstrike-had-told-parents-were-going-to-die-were-scared-12311434

@HeartBrake

It’s true though - ‘unprecedented’ is obviously a subjective word, but Israel has dropped hundreds of bombs on a densely populated strip of land in the last 10 days.

If they hadn’t been going to extreme lengths to prevent civilian casualties, we’d be looking at tens of thousands of Palestinian deaths, not 217 (many of whom are militants targeted by Israel - not all are civilians).

I’m not saying it justifies what Israel is doing, or that it excuses the civilian casualties that have occurred, but it is an indisputable fact that Israel is going to massive lengths to avoid civilian casualties.

On a purely cold, factual level - It isn’t in Israel’s interest to kill countless civilians. Gazan civilians pose no threat to Israel, and the more that are killed, the more bad press Israel gets in the West. Israel is simply trying to wipe out Hamas’ military infrastructure that does pose a threat (not an existential threat, but one with the ability to disrupt life in Southern and Central Israel).

@lydia7986 everything you’ve said above is true, but unfortunately many people are incapable of thinking about truth or rationality when it comes to Israel.

Over 200 dead in Gaza now, 150 of those militants, and many of the others killed by misfired Hamas rockets. This is Israeli ‘genocide’ according to the good people of mumsnet.

The Hamas charter actually pledging to wipe out the entirety of Israel’s Jews = a perfectly acceptable response to injustice.

This is an interesting piece from a Palestinian activist who, strangely enough, not only doesn’t believe the Israelis are committing genocide but believes the blame for the current situation lies with Hamas.

www.spectator.co.uk/article/hamas-not-israel-is-to-blame-for-the-latest-bloodshed

I thoUght Tony Blair was the Middle East envoy that was sent over years ago to sort all of this out

Whammyyammy if you're not sure about that I would read a bit more. There are current political and big historical reasons why other countries are heavily involved.

Also the US trade based aid to Israel is the basis of all aid, nearly all of it is given to other countries with an expectation of something equivalent in return, that's not unique to 2 countries.

Another Palestinian with some good advice on how to support his people with supporting the current Hamas leadership:

jungle.world/blog/2021/05/message-true-friends-palestinians?fbclid=IwAR3aIEhBjdOrkyrZnm-IwJkZRAGcLTCzLtTsXJYmcEhltX66MZHl-LlfKmc

Oxfam and Save the Children are both running Gaza appeals. The situation is desperate for the Palestinians living in Gaza.

@Nonbibblebibble I was looking for somewhere to donate money. My dc want to donate too.
It’s just such a sad situation and I hope they can rebuild the infrastructure, if they are able to keep their land.
I guess that’s the motive of the bombing. Destroy as much as possible.

No @Foghead - the motive of the IDF bombing is to destroy Hamas, who have been firing rockets at Israeli citizens for the last two weeks and who have vowed to destroy Israel and drive all of its Jews in to the sea.

Which in no way undermines your point about the importance of donating and helping the people of Gaza. I have also donated. It’s just a little more complex than you present in terms of apportioning blame.

@Whammyyammy

Is that a joke? You might want to do some very basic research online to find out.

Surely the Israeli airstrikes are going to be counterproductive though? If there were any Palestinians who didn’t support Hamas yesterday, they sure as hell will today! And on it continues...

After seeing trained, hardened soldiers suffer horrifically with PTSD after witnessing war crimes, the only people in my thoughts this morning are the Palestinian babies and children. We can’t even begin to imagine how traumatised they must be

Yes, absolutely @UnculturedSwine - it’s an endless cycle for exactly the reason you say. But the blame is not one-sided.

[quote Thehistorygirls]@lydia7986 everything you’ve said above is true, but unfortunately many people are incapable of thinking about truth or rationality when it comes to Israel.

Over 200 dead in Gaza now, 150 of those militants, and many of the others killed by misfired Hamas rockets. This is Israeli ‘genocide’ according to the good people of mumsnet.

The Hamas charter actually pledging to wipe out the entirety of Israel’s Jews = a perfectly acceptable response to injustice.[/quote]
What do you think about the Israeli Government's pledge to take all Palestinian land?

If you believe that Hamas wants to erase Israel's Jews then you must also accept that the Israelis wish to erase the Palestinians and force them out. After all, they have been doing that with great success for decades now.

What would be your suggested response to 'injustice'?

My suggested response @KaptainKaveman would be ceasefire followed by negotiation for a two-state solution based on the 1967 borders.

Exactly as the Oslo Accords nearly achieved in the 1990s basically. But it won’t be possible with the current leaders in place.

In theory I agree with you @Thehistorygirls.

And what then happens to the hundreds of thousands of illegal Israeli 'settlers'? will they become the newest group of diaspora? will they take up arms and fight?

If there was a two-state solution, both sides would need to make compromises on the land they want. So Israelis living in the more recent settlements would need to find a home elsewhere in Israel I guess.

But literally none of this can or will happen until Hamas isn’t running the show. The Palestinians need a better voice, and one that recognises Israel’s right to exist. Israel cannot and should not negotiate with a party who is calling for their extermination.

Raphael Mimoun on Twitter:

‘I grew up in a Zionist household, spent 12 years in a Zionist youth movement, lived 4 years in Israel and have friends and family who served in the IDF.

When that is your world, it’s hard to see apartheid when it’s happening.

The only thing that can bring Palestinian liberation is if the cost of the occupation outweighs its benefits. And that requires, just like in the apartheid’s in South Africa and the US south, massive external pressure.

That means consumer boycott of Israeli goods, corporate boycott of Israeli technology, and sanctions by Israel’s main trade partner and political supporters, the US and EU. Those are the only measures that can meaningfully push Israel towards ending the occupation.’

@Thehistorygirls

If there was a two-state solution, both sides would need to make compromises on the land they want. So Israelis living in the more recent settlements would need to find a home elsewhere in Israel I guess.

But literally none of this can or will happen until Hamas isn’t running the show. The Palestinians need a better voice, and one that recognises Israel’s right to exist. Israel cannot and should not negotiate with a party who is calling for their extermination.

Israel refuses to recognise the Palestinian's right to exist. They are destroying them and deliberately forcing them into refugee status. The hypocrisy and racism is staggering.

The Palestinians cannot and should not negotiate with a government which is calling for their extermination.

But literally none of this can or will happen until Hamas isn’t running the show. The Palestinians need a better voice, and one that recognises Israel’s right to exist. Israel cannot and should not negotiate with a party who is calling for their extermination.

This! It's amazing how many anti-israel posters seem unable to grasp this. Hamas are literally on record as saying "Over is the time spent discussing recognizing Israel. Now Hamas will discuss when we will wipe out Israel".

Hamas will not stop. Not for a ceasefire, not for a two state agreement, not for anything. They want Israel gone completely and to create a Muslim state in its place. But according to a lot of posters Israel should just let them lose and accept it.

Interestingly enough most of these posters are opposed to the likes of the Taliban, Al-Qaeda and ISIS. They've no issue with the UK indiscriminately laying waste to the middle east in the name of protecting ourselves, but the second a Jewish majority country fights back there's outcry.
It's very easy to see why so many claim antisemitism, I mean @KaptainKaveman can't even distinguish the difference between a race, a country, and a religion.

Jewishness is both a race (as it's inherited maternally) and a religion. Or did you not know?

Why have the borders changed so much in the last 50 years? is that not proof that Israel is destroying Palestine?

Anyone who denies this is a racist.

Seems like a ceasefire is imminent. Both sides will try to claim some kind of 'victory' no doubt.