When will the cycle of suffering end? Israel/Palestine

[HeartBrake]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-57142627

Aibu to believe that there are no winners here

The misery continues.

People who actually believe that Israel is a democracy are deluded.

? You can have a democracy and still be genocidal. USA and Native Americans, Germany under Hitler (yes he was democratically elected).

I have observed that every time this central fact is mentioned - the shrinking of the Palestinian territories leading to the expansion of Israeli borders - the apologists clam up.

@kaptainkaveman - I am not 'an apologist' and I have not 'clammed up'. As I said above, I believe in a two-state solution based on the 1967 borders. I believe some of the settled land will need to be returned. But the concession from the Palestinian side needs to be an acknowledgement of the Israeli state and its validity.

And all of those who want to boycott Israeli goods, knock yourselves out. You do know that they make iPhones right? On which I imagine many of you are happily typing right now. Oh, and intel chips. Best of luck with your boycott!

Did you boycott British goods when we were at war with Iraq? (assuming you opposed that war too...)

Everyone knows that the refugees who fled at the Naqba have been kept permanently in refugee camps for decades by the countries surrounding Israel to foment violence against a state they do not recognise, yes? That they manage their own politics by blaming negative events in their countries on Israel's existence? You think that would stop with a quick handshake at Camp David?

If 40 explosive missiles a day were coming from Jersey to Central London, the group sending them being enthusiastically supported (at least in public, though less so practically) by the French government, what would you want the government here to do? What would you feel?

@Thehistorygirls

And all of those who want to boycott Israeli goods, knock yourselves out. You do know that they make iPhones right? On which I imagine many of you are happily typing right now. Oh, and intel chips. Best of luck with your boycott!

Did you boycott British goods when we were at war with Iraq? (assuming you opposed that war too...)

Regardless of your stance in this situation, why would you actively discourage people from taking action that could potentially force the Israeli authorities to cease its human rights violations?

Do you have shares in Israeli companies? Would the impact on the Israeli economy directly affect you?

But literally none of this can or will happen until Hamas isn’t running the show

Agree about Hamas but also similar applies to Netanyahu:

“Avraham Burg, former speaker of the Israeli Knesset, and ex-interim President of Israel, has spoken to DW about what led to the current situation, and why there is no obvious way out of the crisis.

"There are no proportions in wars," he said. "War is an unproportional measure and the situation is not to be judged immediately. It is what led to it and what led to it is actually an interesting joint motivation — a common denominator between Hamas and Netanyahu's conservative government. Both do not want to give power to the Palestinian authority and make peace with it."

"The Hamas wants to take over the Palestinian authority," Burg continued, "and promote its religious and political agenda. And Netanyahu does not want to compromise, sit down and have a reconciliation with the Palestinian authority because it will lead eventually to a Palestinian state."

@UnculturedSwine Yes, I do have shares in Israeli companies because I am a suspicious Jew who helps to fund the state of Israel. That's the answer you were hoping for, right?

If not, and your anti-semitic dogwhistle was an accident, then I'm just doing you the favour of flagging it for you so that you can avoid it in the future.

Of course I am not against a boycott because I personally benefit financially from Israeli goods. I am against it because I am pointing out that you are holding Israel to a standard of behaviour that literally no other country in the world is held to. If I'm wrong about this, and you're currently also boycotting goods from a wide variety of other countries that do bad things, do ping me over the list of countries. I'd love to see it!

@zotter I completely agree that Netanyahu is a barrier to peace too - I am in no way a supporter of his.

[quote Thehistorygirls]@zotter I completely agree that Netanyahu is a barrier to peace too - I am in no way a supporter of his.[/quote]
👍👍

@Thehistorygirls my questions were not anti Semitic, by that analogy you’re saying that the only people who support the actions of the Israeli government are Jewish, which most definitely IS anti Semitic. If a government could be forced to end its human rights abuses due to the cost of occupation outweighing the benefits then I do not understand why someone would actively discourage people from boycotting?

Why do you keep mentioning other countries? We’re currently talking about Israel and Palestine, but if you really do want to compare - boycotting played a huge part in ending apartheid in South Africa, why shouldn’t the same be applied to Israel?

@UnculturedSwine The same can't be applied because Israel is not Apartheid South Africa. The differences are so stark that I don't have time to list them if you genuinely don't know them, but this is a helpful thread that gives more context if you do want to know more:

twitter.com/DavidHirsh/status/1395124622610292742?s=20

What Israel is, is a democracy that has committed some grave injustices, just like the UK, the US, and most other countries in the world. So, my perfectly fair question is, why do you only care about Israel?

I am also drawing your attention to the fact that holding Israel to a standard to which you hold no other country is anti-semitic. You seem, for example, to hold the Israelis to a higher standard than the current Hamas leadership in Gaza, who are attempting to murder innocent Israeli Jews.

Why do we refer to Israel as an apartheid state?

There is overwhelming evidence that the system instituted by the Israeli government against the Palestinian people meets the UN definition of apartheid.

In effect, Israel and the occupied Palestinian territory constitute one territorial unit under full Israeli control. Palestinians constitute around half of the total population (inside Israel and in the oPt), yet under Israeli law, and in practice, Jewish Israelis and Palestinians are treated differently in almost every aspect of life: housing, education, health, employment, family life, residence, and freedom of movement. Dozens of Israeli laws and policies institutionalise this prevailing system of racial discrimination and domination.

Segregation is carried out by implementing separate legal regimes for Jewish Israelis and Palestinians living in the same area. In the occupied West Bank, Jewish Israeli settlers living in illegal settlements are governed by Israeli civil law, while Palestinians also living in the West Bank are governed by Israeli military law.

In Israel itself, there exists no ‘Israeli’ nationality shared by all citizens, Jewish and non-Jewish alike. Rather, citizens are divided into ‘national’ categories of ‘Jewish’, which affords them a set of rights and privileges above the other categories, or ‘Arab’ with comparatively restricted rights and privileges. This separation was reiterated when Israel passed the Nation State Law in 2018, essentially codifying decades of discrimination and enshrining two classes of citizens in law.

Israel carries out various acts that are prohibited by the UN Apartheid Convention including:

• Forcible transfer of Palestinians to make way for illegal Israeli settlements.
• Preventing Palestinians from returning to their homes and lands (including millions of refugees living in exile).
• Systematic and severe deprivation of fundamental human rights of Palestinians based on their identity.
• Denying Palestinians their right to freedom of movement and residence (especially, but not limited to Palestinians in the Gaza Strip).
• Murder, torture, unlawful imprisonment and other severe deprivation of physical liberty.
• Persecution of Palestinians because of their opposition to apartheid.

waronwant.org/news-analysis/israeli-apartheid-factsheet

What Israel is, is a democracy that has committed some grave injustices.

You have used past tense, Israel is willingly carrying out atrocities as we speak.

You seem, for example, to hold the Israelis to a higher standard than the current Hamas leadership in Gaza, who are attempting to murder innocent Israeli Jews.

The opposite actually, I argue that Israel is held in higher regard than Hamas by many when in fact they both conduct acts of terror.

What Israel is, is a democracy that has committed some grave injustices, just like the UK, the US, and most other countries in the world. So, my perfectly fair question is, why do you only care about Israel?

Because Israel is committing genocide today. All the others happened hundreds of years ago.

An interesting and civil discussion on Newsnight by two British Jews with opposing views on Israel govt. I should note Danny Finkelstein probably represents the majority view amongst British Jews. Rivkah’s view well argued.

viewstwitter.com/bbcnewsnight/status/1394788827357646851?s=21

Ah, link didn’t work.

mobile.twitter.com/BBCNewsnight/status/1394788827357646851

Netenyahu, Sharon etc wished to wipe out civilians, calling them Hamas is the oldest trick in the book. They call it 'mowing the lawn'.

@planderaccordement - not all other genocides happened 'hundreds of years ago'. As I'm sure you know.

And you don't just get to state that Israel is committing genocide and for it to be so.

I would start by taking a look at more other recent genocides - Rwanda, say, or the Nazi holocaust, and see if you can find any notable features that distinguish them from what is going on in Israel/Palestine currently.

To speed things up, I'll help you out. When two sides are both killing each other, that is not usually a genocide, it's more often called 'a war'. The Palestinian leadership have, under various guises spent the last however many years blowing up innocent Israeli citizens on buses, in restaurants, in nightclubs. The most recent leadership have called for their total annihilation. So unless you believe this is a two-sided attempted genocide, it's not a genocide. It is a war, in which you believe the Israeli side are committing war crimes. But that is very different from a genocide.

The blinkers have been removed - American voters are changing their minds on Netanyahu and Israel

Link: www.independent.co.uk/voices/israel-netanyahu-us-government-relationship-conflict-b1850395.html

Netanyahu’s master plan for Israel and Palestine has failed

www.ft.com/content/eaf20221-1074-4bb4-9677-9091a5c31b1e

Israel’s war crimes:

www.theguardian.com/law/2021/mar/03/israeli-officials-start-to-feel-the-impact-of-icc-investigation

1. When the USA stops sending weapons and money to Israel and the US President backs the UN call for a ceasefire.
2. When the world recognises why Hamas even exists and has support from some Palestinians
3. When the illegal and aggressive land grabs of Palestinian land is redressed
4. When Jewish settlements are moved off Palestinian land
5. When Israel is forced to obey International Law
6. When the fact that Palestinians are being 'ghettoed' in by The Israeli Government, denied aid, blockaded their denied human rights is recognised by the world community

For starters