To think you don’t go to University just for the University experience

[CovidSmart]

Many many discussions in our house on university atm.

Two dcs who are convinced (I imagine from what school is telling them) that what is important is to find the Uni where you will get the best experience. Somehow the rest doesn’t seem to matter as

• companies will train you
• you can do whatever you want after that as long as you have a degree/master.

I see university as a way to learn about a subject so you can work after so the subject is important (eg important to learn economic if you want to work in business related fields, engineering to be an engineer etc..).

Both dcs are so adamant I’m wrong that I’m starting to question myself. Not having the experience of the British system doesn’t help (went to uni and started to work in a different country).

Any experience?

@CovidSmart

So as you have all been helpful, I have another question forf you.

What about those who do their degree/MA but fail to get a job or can only get a MW job and never manage to get out of it?

Why is that happening? What's the difference between those students and the ones who succeed and end up with a job at £50k as a graduate?

I went to Cambridge. I have friends who have very successful and illustrious careers. I also have friends who are on MW type jobs. It's nothing to do with their university experience and all to do with what they value in life - some are working MW jobs because they are trying to start a business on the side, some are also actors/musicians and a job is just a job, some have mental and/or physical health issues, some are just in very low paid professions because it's what they love.

I didn't go to university because I'm thick as mince and it would have been a waste of time and money.

I left home when I was 17 and lived in a shared house, worked full time, partied all the time. I didn't need to go to university to do that so I think YANBU.

DD will likely head for Uni, but I’ll be damned if I’d pay for her to go just for a uni life experience.

Interesting thread.
I agree with most, it is a combination of a lot of factors.
Yes, "the experience" is a part of it.

Don't forget life has changed over the last 120 years. People used to leave school at 12 / 13 /14. People didn't used to live as long as they do now. Part of all the change is more and more dc are very confident / independent / dare I say 'adult' at 18 as they perhaps were 50 or 60 years ago. Also it is very unlikely that people will stay in the same jobs for the whole of their working life. Going to Universtiy does give some of those 18 year olds chance to 'grow up'. The 'experience' isn't all about social life - it is about dealing with things like living with people that aren't necessarily the same as you (great skill to learn before entering the work place - okay, not 'living with' but 'existing alongside, or 'working on a project with'); dealing with unhelpful landlords, contracts, occasions when things go wrong; planning travel; planning your time - fitting in laundry and shopping etc around socialising, attending lecture and seminars and disciplining yourself to do your self study.
Going to somewhere you are going to like living is really important. As a pp said upthread, when applying for a job, wouldn't you take into consideration where it was and what the housing was like and the opportunities outside of work ?
Only something like 20% of people work in a field they have specifically trained for in their degrees I believe, so unless you are going to do something from one of those disciplines, you absolutely should do a subject you enjoy, and, preferably are passionate about.

@CovidSmart

So as you have all been helpful, I have another question forf you.

What about those who do their degree/MA but fail to get a job or can only get a MW job and never manage to get out of it?

Why is that happening? What's the difference between those students and the ones who succeed and end up with a job at £50k as a graduate?

Wow that's a loaded question!

Given your dh's experience I feel I should make you aware that polytechnics are now all universities. (1992 was the magic year all converted - hence the phrase pre- and post-92s). Some ex-polys are very good, others not so much. Some have a poor reputation generally but may be very good for one or two specific subjects. Many of these unis have their roots in industrial experience, with strong links to local employers. Many target their local population. Many, despite being seen as the poorer cousins of the pre-92s will actually be very good at getting graduates into jobs.

Research is vital to many unis - often reputation is based on their research quality. That's probably true of those regarded as the more elite (Russell group for example) which may be important to a prospective undergraduate. On the other has it doesn't guarantee that the world renowned researcher is going to teach your child! But it's where the reputation comes from rightly or wrongly.

There are also specialists - Art, Music and Drama conservatories for example.

That's a very long winded way of saying that the university sector in the UK is very diverse. Choose carefully.

Think about what's important (location - city/town/middle of nowhere,
distance from home, year abroad, placement year - though unlikely for History), and grades. If your kid suffers isn't confident or suffers from anxiety, then perhaps an academically 'elite' place isn't the best for them. On the other hand they might thrive in that sort of environment. If they play sport at national level then somewhere that allows them to train might be more important.

For most kids, picking the uni with the highest grades that they can realistically achieve is sensible. But if your kid is a 3 x B kid, there's not much point putting Oxford or Durham down.

The league tables are useful and you can sort by what's important. Google them.

As for why some grads end up in MW jobs - well, life. Graduates are like any other group of people at the end of the day. Some are ambitious, some lazy, some happy working in a shop, some only working in the shop while they build their own business/audition for the London Symphony, some grow up later than others, some will become stay at home parents, some will have MH issues they need to deal with. End of the day, it's your kid that has to make effort to get a decent career - if that's what they want. And if it isn't what they want - well it's their life. And they can always change their minds later - degrees don't have to be torn up if they don't get used.

Sorry, bit long. Hope that helps!

Why on earth would you worry about them wanting to study History?

There’s a lot of merit in studying a subject they’re passionate about and good at, at a good university, even if it’s not a course that obviously leads directly to a specific career.

I studied History to MA level and now work in Finance. The analytical, research and critical thinking skills you develop studying something like History are valuable in a range of careers. I can only think of a couple of my coursemates who went into teaching, there’s a really wide range of destinations.

@CovidSmart The difference? Research, ambition and having a plan.
I was an international student - Most of them in my cohort managed to get jobs despite our application being restricted (only to those who sponsored visas) at a time when the entire country was moaning about the lack of graduate jobs. The reason? Many international students took loans to study here (tuition fees being triple that of local students and in weaker foreign currencies) and had to pay those back. These were people with degrees in history, politics etc as well as ‘traditional’ ones like finance.

With all due respect not all of us have the luxury of faffing about figuring out ‘what to do’. Those who are career oriented go to uni knowing that they need a job. Go to career fairs, talk to seniors etc and you usually get good leads on possible careers! The good universities should have frequent career fairs, employers visiting and a good career Center. Not one staff by untrained people.

*only to companies with sponsored Tier 2 visas

As a few previous posters have said a history degree is very common in the legal profession. Also seems to be a popular degree with people working in finance, politics and journalism.

But to echo others I would be more nervous about history at a former poly.

I think the main thing is to be realistic about what a levels they are going to achieve and whether they are cut out to study academic subjects, rather than vocational ones

YANBU only in the parallel world are degrees like history and English lit worth as much as STEM degrees.Take a look at the stats on 'discover Uni'

I am a lecturer and I have to say I agree with your dc. Most people don’t end of in a career related to what they study anyway. As long as you come out with a degree, that will tick the boxes for future jobs.

But it is about the experience. Friends, living independently, clubs, travel. It’s why students have missed out and struggled so much this year. I can teach them the stuff. But I can’t give them relationships and learning how to pay bills and theatre club.

The people I know who didn’t go to uni have struggled to launch in a lot of ways. I think because they missed out on those growth experiences. They have jobs but are still living like a pseudo teen existence even though they’re nearly 30 now.

It’s good for them. And expensive way to get it, but a really good experience. They’ll remember the fun times much more than what they learn in lectures (and even as a lecturer, I think that’s okay).

But the subject as such isn't as important.

I'm not sure you are reading my posts, still!

The subject is important, in the sense of the student's enjoyment of it.

@CovidSmart

So as you have all been helpful, I have another question forf you.

What about those who do their degree/MA but fail to get a job or can only get a MW job and never manage to get out of it?

Why is that happening? What's the difference between those students and the ones who succeed and end up with a job at £50k as a graduate?

That's a wider issue. I wouldn't worry about this for your DC, if you have encouraged them to be bright, motivated, curious people.

Of course people end up in MW jobs or jobs that don't meet their qualifications. It's personal to that individual and there isn't one answer.

Don't start here tho. Start by encouraging your DC & deal with challenges as they come.

@CovidSmart

So as you have all been helpful, I have another question forf you.

What about those who do their degree/MA but fail to get a job or can only get a MW job and never manage to get out of it?

Why is that happening? What's the difference between those students and the ones who succeed and end up with a job at £50k as a graduate?

I see quite a lot of graduates from Arts & Humanities degrees in my field. The difference between those who get the jobs, and those who don’t, is usually work ethic, enthusiasm and persistence, understanding what’s needed by research and reading and info gathering, and resilience - not thinking anything is not worth their while just because it’s not a graduate position on a fancy recruitment scheme. Actually some of the more successful ones have worked the minimum wage jobs after graduating but just ... persisted.

I don’t think there are swathes of graduates with good degrees who never make it out of minimum wage jobs if they have an ounce of common sense or ambition. There are lots of paths to success and many careers. However there may be some who choose to live on minimum wage jobs because they’re prioritising an arts path, for instance, where ‘career’ is not the objective. As long as it’s an active choice and they understand it, that’s their prerogative.

There were better ranked universities for my subject, but i factored in other things to, and the best thing I ever did. Location, sports team ranking, local work experience opportunities, I needed a part time job so the job market for students, opportunity to study abroad for a semester, and yes the nightlife! Because my degree wasn't for something such as nursing where the degree alone combines the required academic side and experience to walk into a role, I viewed the opportunity to become a well rounded candidate for future jobs beyond my degree certificate whilst also wanting to have a good time.

I don't get the idea of going purely for the experience. They are at a stage of their life where they need the training to get a career.

In my experience a greater proportion of those who do a non-vocational degree end up without the skills needed to get started in the world of work and struggle more than their peers who went into apprenticeships or onto vocational degree courses.

I did a vocational degree and work in that field, my sister is a scientist and she did a degree followed by a masters to get the knowledge she needed for her career my other sister did a more general degree and never got established in a career so has worked in various unskilled roles. The two of us who did vocational courses earn a lot more than my sister who did not and enjoy our work more.

That said my sister did marry someone more wealthy so is actually better off financially than me or my sister who earn more than her but chose less wealthy husbands.

Although this probably points to looking at everything in the context of experience, I would recommend digging deeper into the accommodation there, especially in connection with the price.

Someone I know who is very clever dropped out in the first year and abandoned the degree largely because of her accommodation - it was in an area which some would have seen as edgy, she experienced as threatening (and yes, it belonged to the uni, though not on campus, and they didn't help to overcome that). I work in an area that is, all told, possibly the dodgiest I have ever worked in, but the university campus is very safe (because that is not ignored) and resources well cared for - that said, there is a huge range of prices and what you get for your spend.

the first year, it's very unlikely that you will get much of a choice of accommodation apart from the divisions made by cost. Also find out: how long can you stay there outside of terms, if you have to? Or do you have to pay for 2 weeks extra before term, whether you can use it or not? How many do you share space with? How far is it from the places you will spend lots of time for what you are doing (labs? Lectures?) What's the transport like and what would it cost if you need it? Is there a massive, noisy, dusty building project going on slowly next to your block (clue - yes, in a lot of places, and it may be re-animating after covid). Bear in mind that all prospectuses will be giving the rosiest possible view here.

In my experience a greater proportion of those who do a non-vocational degree end up without the skills needed to get started in the world of work and struggle more than their peers who went into apprenticeships or onto vocational degree courses.

That’s not my experience; I recruit to finance graduate trainee positions (albeit public sector not big 4) and by far our most successful appointees are those with more traditional, academic degrees rather than those from the Accounting or Finance degrees. In recent years we’ve had History, Biology, Music and Economics graduates that have done particularly well. They all have to do the same post graduate qualification as part of the training, but they have something different to bring to the roles as well as just double entry bookkeeping.

Learning for the sake is valuable.

Making universities businesses has led people to lose sight of that.

In my experience a greater proportion of those who do a non-vocational degree end up without the skills needed to get started in the world of work and struggle more than their peers who went into apprenticeships or onto vocational degree courses.

That's not what the research shows.

Learning for the sake of learning that should say

I'm with the DCs on this one - uni is essentially a place for delaying adulthood, or perhaps 'finding yourself' (excepting genuinely vocational degrees like medicine etc). There are much, much more effective ways to learn a profession in most cases. More and more jobs have non-graduate entry routes, training on the job. If you love learning for its own sake, you can still learn (usually much more economically) without going to uni. Choosing by 'experience' is probably sensible tbh - student mental health is horrendously bad and if your degree is going to be questionably useful, at least pick somewhere you're going to be happy, make friends and develop your interests.

Whether it charges too much for that function is another question. The bit I would be looking to unpick is that 'you can do whatever you want' with an undergrad degree/masters. Being a graduate or even a masters graduate is not special or rare, and I think schools are highly irresponsible for telling kids a degree is a ticket to a well-paid job. It absolutely isn't.

It’s not about what you learn ( unless it’s a vocational degree like medicine) it’s about how you learn and the skills you gain from that process. In particular critical thinking and how to analyse and formulate an argument and opinion from lots of diverse prices of information.

I am an accountant and have a PPE degree, my colleagues have degrees in languages, history, chemistry, law, and engineering. My db is a geologist, he is actually a professional geologist but his friends from university with a similar degree are teachers, bankers, hr professionals and accountants.

DD1was hoping to do a fairly specific vocational apprenticeship but sadly the scheme she hoped to join wasn't accepting recruits the year she left school. As she exceeded all her A level results (predicted B-D, got A*-B) she decided to do a degree locally in a topic she was interested in that combined business studies as she felt it'd help her overall job prospects. Hated the social side. Completed degree last year but there are no vacancies in her chosen field so is working for herself riding peoples horses. Earns as much as her friends of same age in perhaps 1/3 the time.