landlords eh

[chicadelmonton]

We rented a house for two years and moved out in January. As a family we've moved out of several houses before (in London, so £££) and I thought I'd got it down to a tee. I paid for the full expensive clean (was nearly 800 quid, including carpets, ovens, windows etc.). This was guaranteed, so any problems would be rectified by the company. Before moving out we allowed viewings (they were selling), which I don't normally do but they had been very good to us as LL. These viewings continued after we left and are still ongoing now as it's not sold. I had several conversations with the LL about the state of the property and offered to get an odd job man in instead of paying for the inventory (cost is about the same) but he said no they preferred to do an inventory. All fine with me. At the end of the tenancy the ll returned out deposit in full, without question. Great, I thought, and fair too, as we had paid all our rent on time and allowed unlimited viewings. Now, two months later, he has sent me a list of damages totalling 2k (including cleaning faults) and asked for my thoughts. AIBU that he has taken away my right of redress through the deposit protection scheme? I'm aware I could do nothing but it might fester on and if he really wanted to he could take us to small claims. There are some silly things on the list like two broken light fittings for 300 quid each and gardening at 50 per hour.

I would have paid reasonable deductions from the deposit, but why repay the deposit and then do this?

Argh what a nightmare!

It will help you that there is no inventory. A word of warning about photos. If they don't have any date information in the file he uploads, the TDS will accept that they were taken when he says they were taken so make sure you have it in writing that he says they were taken weeks after you moved out. Also make sure you have proof that the property was on the market to show that people have been in and out of the property since you vacated.

He also says we should have maintained the box hedging in front of the house, like I'm supposed to be into topiary in my space time

Maybe not topiary but you are responsible for small hedge and shrub trimming. If there aren't any specific clauses in the contract about gardening, tenants are expected to do garden maintenance that doesn't require any special expertise - lawn mowing, weeding, pruning, trimming small hedges but not if you would need to use a ladder or specialist equipment. Trees would be the landlord's responsibility.

However, on the plus side, you left during winter, so the hedges will have grown since you left and even if you had left it perfectly weeded, weeds will have only started to really grow in spring after you left. I would argue that you aren't responsible for any weeds at all as it would be expected that bare earth would have turned into a jungle since you left. You can tell whether the hedges have been left untrimmed for years or it is just this year's growth so you will have to pay for that if they have been left untrimmed since you moved in. Actually box should be cut back in May. So I would point out:

1. They should be trimmed in May anyway and you would expect there to be lots of new growth so he would have had to pay for a gardener to do that regardless.
2. You should trim them between September and May to prevent frost damage so you would have damaged them if you cut them when you vacated.

You haven't really explained why you vacated in January 9 (and it sounds like you returned the keys then as the cleaners had to collect them) but your tenancy only ended 2 months ago. That has a bearing on his claim, it also has a bearing on your claim if you ended the tenancy more than 3 months ago (the TDS can't deal with it). If you mutually agreed to end the tenancy and returned the keys in January, it doesn't matter whether your fixed term hadn't finished. You weren't paying rent, you were paying compensation for his losses. The move out stuff should have been done back then. Usually what happens is that the tenant pays rent until the property is relet (and any extra costs of reletting early). It really depends on what was agreed/how it was done though. The other complication is that the landlord didn't try to relet the property because he wanted to sell with vacant possession (so he benefited from you vacating early, he didn't actually have any financial loss of rent). You were somewhat ripped off (although he had the right to refuse to end the contract early).

The TDS can't adjudicate on things like that, only the courts, and you probably can't claim back that rent now as you made an agreement. I would use it as a bargaining chip with the landlord though.

Thank you @chesirecat99, that's a really great info-packed post! I'm going to try to address your points.

I love the stuff about the trimming of the box hedge. From your point 1 do I gather that the LL would have had some responsibility to maintain the garden? The hedge is quite inaccessible because it is set down from ground level (in front of a basement, but the basement is not separate so does not have it's own entrance or steps). It also figures a large bay tree which got completely out of control and I did have this cut back before we moved out. In fact, I had it done while the viewings were going on as a courtesy because it let more light into the house.

We officially vacated the house on April 1 (that's when the movers went in). By that time we were spending most of our time at our new place but had given notice. Our 12 month tenancy ended on at the end of january and we mutually agreed to go on to a monthly rolling contract with a two month minimum. We gave notice ones our house purchase went through and we had the school place confirmed. All this is fine, there's no rent dispute and all communications were fine.

This morning I heard back from the cleaning co. I sent them the pics my LL sent me where he had cleaned one tile in the kitchen which showed how ingrained the dirt was in the remaining tiles. They have agreed to return and clean properly this week even though it's outside their guarantee because they obviously didn't use the right products.

I have to say, those tiles were awful. We had a steam cleaner which our cleaner used, so I assumed they were clean but they clearly need some sort of industrial-strength cleaner. I'm going to email him now although he'll have to liaise iwht them himself.

Nothing useful to add but following your post in the hope that your claim is successful and the chancer landlord gets nothing. 🤣

@tensmum, you're very welcome to hang out, on my thread and await the season finale! I share your enthusiasm for CFs getting their comeuppance, and will update.

[quote chicadelmonton]@tensmum, you're very welcome to hang out, on my thread and await the season finale! I share your enthusiasm for CFs getting their comeuppance, and will update.[/quote]
Thank you. I detest LL like this (awaits mn back lash 🤣) Have had historic experience of similar so really hoping they don't get away with it. Good luck.

What a nightmare!

How much rent were you paying?

From your point 1 do I gather that the LL would have had some responsibility to maintain the garden?

No. I meant that it became the LL's responsibility after you vacated in April. The correct time to trim the hedge is May (with 1 or 2 smaller maintenance trims between May and September) so he would have had to pay someone to trim it then. It will have a lot of new growth since you left on April 1 (when there would have been very little new growth as it was dormant over the winter) so they will have been in a lot worse condition when he finally got round to inspecting it a few weeks ago. Unless they were in a terrible state from several years neglect, the cost/time of the trimming it in May (which he would have to do anyway) should be the same whether you had trimmed it when you vacated. Plus, you would have damaged it if you trimmed it in March.

So your argument is:

1. Hedges should be cut in May, therefore he would have had to pay for a trim anyway.
2. You left before the spring growth had started so most of the growth will have occured in the time between when you vacated and when he inspected the property.
3. You should not have trimmed them in March at the end of the tenancy as they could be frost damaged.

If you have left them untrimmed for years, it might not be possible to get them back in shape because the inside of the hedge will be dead growth. You can only trim back the living part. If that has happened, he would have a case for charging you to replace the damaged parts of the hedge.

Garden maintenance is the largely the tenant's responsibility though, unless it is specifically mentioned in the contract. As I said before, the exceptions are jobs that require specialist skills or are dangerous eg very tall hedges, trees, shaping topiary eg box balls or spirals. You can't expect a tenant to do things like wrap tender plants in fleece for winter, replant annuals etc, but a tenant should mow the lawn, weed and trim low hedges.

I'm a professional landlord and it's landlords like this that make me really cross.
You follow the correct processes and do things by the book or you give all landlords a bad name when you pull stunts like this!
I feel for you OP!

@chesirecat99, thank you, you are brilliant! I love that argument. I'm also going to tell him that I couldn't access the hedge safely. We haven't trimmed it in two years. We had the back garden done about 12 months ago and a new lawn laid of which he paid half. Unfortunately we had a lot of problems with foxes digging up the turf, but I carried out watering it and sprinkling new seeds and it mostly revived. It's hard to say what condition it was in because it was so wintery when we left. He is charging me 700 for a new lawn and also notes that he shouldn't have had to pay half when we had the lawn turfed! Er well, I asked and he said yes so not sure if I should have got him to check with his mum first!

Hmm... I wouldn't admit to having not trimmed the hedge for 2 years. I would say something ambiguous like:

"Furthermore, as the box hedge is not safely accessible because XYZ, it requires trimming by a professional, so I would suggest that it is the landlord's responsibility in the same way that tree surgery and trimming very large hedges that require professional, skilled maintenance and are considered to be the landlord's responsibility."

You could also add this link:
hamiltonfraser.co.uk/knowledge/manage-garden-maintenance-rental-property/

The lawn is complicated. What damage is there and what caused the damage? Is there anything in the contract about lawn maintenance?

You can start mowing a lawn March if it is dry and is at least 8cm so it probably should have been mown but as he didn't go there until May it will have grown and needed mowing anyway so no need to admit it needed mowing when you left

What caused the damage, is the lawn damaged by your negligence? He needs to show that the damage is because you didn't take care of it or damaged it, not because of general wear and tear nor nature eg winter snow/waterlogging damage, drainage issues, shade, weeds appearing in the spring when it was too early for you to weed and reseed. Did you regularly water it? If you didn't, was there a hosepipe ban (not your fault)? Did the turf fail because it wasn't properly laid? Are the large bare patches caused by a trampoline or furniture or a football goal (your fault)? Are there just a few small bare patches from using it after it had established (fair wear and tear, especially as he chose to let the place to a family with children who would play on the lawn)? Are any bare patches caused by shade/poor drainage/winter waterlogging (not your fault)? Are there patches of weeds/moss? You would expect some in the spring but you can't fix it until the summer, so although it's a normal maintenance task but it wasn't "due" when you lived there so you didn't need to do it. Did you tell the landlord about the issues with the foxes and take steps to deter them?

Hard luck about paying half for returfing, he shouldn't have offered.

Can you tell that gardening and taking on rogue landlords are two of my hobbies @chicadelmonton?

[quote chicadelmonton]@chesirecat99, thank you, you are brilliant! I love that argument. I'm also going to tell him that I couldn't access the hedge safely. We haven't trimmed it in two years. We had the back garden done about 12 months ago and a new lawn laid of which he paid half. Unfortunately we had a lot of problems with foxes digging up the turf, but I carried out watering it and sprinkling new seeds and it mostly revived. It's hard to say what condition it was in because it was so wintery when we left. He is charging me 700 for a new lawn and also notes that he shouldn't have had to pay half when we had the lawn turfed! Er well, I asked and he said yes so not sure if I should have got him to check with his mum first![/quote]
@chicadelmonton You need to stop communicating with him.

Leave it to DPS.

If you keep giving him ammunition to use against you it’s going to get expensive.

@chesirecat99 I visualising a venn diagram with gardening and rogue LL and my thread in the intersection

Seriously, you are so helpful, I'm going to C&P the relevant bits.

When we moved in the garden was in OK condition (it has been very well laid in the beginning when they lived there) but the lawn had large bare patches. We put a trampoline on it and let it overgrow for about a year. Then we took the trampoline down, got gardeners in to cut it all back and lay new turf. The foxes came straight away and pulled up all the squares of turf. I honestly think we would have done better to seed it. In any case, now it can be seeded, planting new turf would be pointless as the earth is still there.

I tried really hard to keep it alive, but obviously by February when we were no longer living there it was in deep winter mode.

There were some massive plants with huge woody stalks and tbh I wasn't sure whether they were meant to be there or not.

Good luck with your claim @chicadelmonton

We had similar a few years ago when we rented for 10 months between selling/buying.

I had to take my (previously nice) LL through the same process when she thought we should pay to redecorate her house. They originally tried to keep £4.5k of our deposit (encouraged by the horrid agent from Savills). When challenged, they then gave back everything except £1k...

I had a newborn at the time, so waited till the day before the 6 months time limit to lodge my claim. After the judgement, she ended up keeping just £200, which was a great outcome. I would have liked all of it back, but that was my fault for not taking photos after I’d had my own decorator back there.

I also permitted lots of viewings in the last couple of months of our tenancy to help her!! If I ever rent again, I’m not doing that.

@JustLyra those are comments from the email he sent me, the only contact I've had with him recently has been to tell him the cleaning company have agreed to go back in and rectify the floor cleaning. He hasn't replied, so I can only imagine he is dealing with them directly.

@RoseDelatour, I'm so cross with myself for allowing viewings when I have refused to do so with previous landlords.

I felt like he had been great because when things broke (the oven and the dishwasher) he replaced them instantly without any talk of trying to fix them.

I think he'll get something out of us, but I'm hoping it will be less than the original offer we made, now withdrawn.

I'm pretty keen on winning this battle though

Do you have a photo of the lawn at the end of the summer showing it was in good condition then, suggesting the damage is normal winter damage?

I would say something along the lines of:

As stated in the inventory hopefully it is in there, the lawn had multiple bare patches when the tenancy began. We damaged part of the lawn with a trampoline, approximately X% of the lawn. However, we paid 50% of the cost of returfing the entire lawn in 2020, so we have already contributed more than the cost of repairing the damage caused by the trampoline, which was removed and disposed of before the lawn was turfed. The landlord has already benefited from betterment of the lawn at our cost.

The current issues with the lawn are caused by spring weeds/waterlogging/poor drainage/shade/snow damage/grass growing after we left (delete as appropriate but I wouldn't mention the foxes unless you were using fox deterrents to stop them). The damage to the lawn is due to natural wear and tear caused by the weather and nature. It is expected that a lawn will need repair after the winter. We were regularly reseeding the lawn (where the turf had not taken) during the appropriate months and taking care of it, watering and mowing it. However, we vacated the property on 1 April, at the start of the appropriate time for beginning to reseed and repair the lawn after winter. This is not a one off task, it requires regular ongoing care and maintenance. The landlord did not visit the property until May nor continue to maintain the lawn during that period, allowing the condition to deteriorate.

I don't. I emailed pics to the LL after the turf was laid. It pretty much recovered from the foxes but only because I tended to it carefully. He has sent me a pic among his litany of complaints but it is from a low angle so you can't really see the grass from overhead which would show the coverage. There were some muddy patches but I'm sure it's better than when we moved it when it was very sparse (as documented in the check in).

Loving your wording @chesirecat99

Technically, you could and probably should, have done some lawn maintenance/reseeding before you left in March when the weather as good. I've been a bit ambiguous as to whether you did or not... I wouldn't normally condone that but fight CFery with CFery

It is a moot point though, because the snow in London in April would probably have killed it off if you had. Actually, you should add in that the snow in April will have killed any grass sown in 2021.

@chesirecat99, we were definitely remiss with the gardening, it's not really on my radar. I did the lawn but the front and back gardens only got one cut back each in the two years.

If I'm due to pay for it, I will. I offered him £800 but he turned it down.

What annoyed me was him charging 50 per hour for gardening and cleaning and full price lamps etc.

I actually offered to pay for a workman for a full day any repairs but he turned that down and said he wanted to go the official inventory route. But then didn't

Actually, one trim in 2 years isn't too bad. Once a year would have been more than fine. I don't think it would be reasonable to expect a tenant to prune more than once a year. Once is garden maintenance, any more is just for the purpose of keeping it perfect at all times rather than a necessity.

So if you cut things back last summer, he hasn't really got a claim. It was too early for major pruning when you left.

@chesirecat99. We're having a nightmare with the floors now. The kitchen dining area has grey tiles which were slightly dimpled. I cleaned them with a steam cleaner and some floor cleaner sprayed on, but it seems there is ingrained dirt which didn't come up in the clean, which apparently only includes 'mopping'. Seems a bit rubbish.
The landlord has been in and cleaned one tile, which now looks a completely different colour. The cleaning co are willing to go back in and 'mop' again, which obviously won't make any difference!
They will submit the photo of the cleaned tile showing the rest as filthy with ingrained dirt.

Maybe deep cleaning the floor is not part of the tenants responsibility?

Aargh

Ugh I had textured floor tiles, they are a nightmare to keep clean. When you clean them the dirty water pools in the dips and dries. I think you need a strong specialist tile restorer cleaning product, a scrubbing brush to get into the "pits" and a floor cleaner that sucks up the water to dry them. You at least need to thoroughly dry the tiles after mopping to stop the dirty water Cleaning is not one of my hobbies though

Have you looked at the inventory? Did they have ingrained dirt when you moved in? If they were perfect, I think this one is on you. Sorry.

What does the contract with the cleaning company say about cleaning hard floors? The best end of tenancy cleans include deep clean of the flooring, carpet shampooing rather than just steaming etc. A normal mop won't be enough.

Just realised that you said the end of tenancy service only included mopping. I would get your own quotes for a deep clean, tile restoration service to counteract the landlord's £50 p/h CFery.

I would carefully check the inventory to make sure they were perfect when you moved in though. Hopefully there is a close up photo. Those tiles don't always look dirty because the dirt in the dimples looks like part of the pattern.

Oooh this reminds me of our cheeky LL who went through the property with exh and confirmed it was in good order, then sent through a bill for hundreds, outlining all the work he had to do to get it in good shape again.

Unfortunately for him, he didn't put our deposit into the protection scheme, as was his legal duty.

Also unfortunately for him, he admitted to this in an email.

I sent him a letter telling him to cease and desist, and to refund our deposit in full, or I would take him to court.

He paid it back immediately.

He was such a cheeky bastard, we knew the people who were moving in after we left (we even arranged for them to meet each other so the LL didn't have to go through an agency), and they told us he didn't do any of the work that he claimed needed doing.

We were solid, reliable tenants, and he took the fucking piss when we moved out.