"I Wanna Be Like You"

[SpottyOrange]

Not sure if this is an AIBU but is that song from the jungle book racist?!
Yes: it's dated and awful
No: don't be daft

@Doghead

FFS. Seriously! Why do people feel the need to find something in everything? The world's gone mad.

'Seeing' isn't 'finding' - there are racist tropes in many older films and books, it is more normal just to note that than it is to try to pretend it isn't there.

I wonder why some people find it so hard to see what is plainly there - they are the people with the issue, surely?

'Old films are a bit racist' is hardly shock news.

Surely everyone knows walt disney was a massive racist. Surprised he hasnt been cancelled.
Saying that, the older disney films are still wonderful and the racist connotations went over my head. I dont think theyre worse than other stuff from the same sort of time.
Its quite interesting to look at this sort of imagery and how it shows prevailing attitudes of the time, and also how much has changed since then.
Herge and tintin have got warnings on some books. Enid Blyton etc.

I’m baffled as to why people can’t grasp/won’t concede that some things have more than one layer to them.

A crustacean can be brave and helpful and at the same time be a poorly drawn comedy minority, an ape can be after fire to ward off rival beasts and be a (somewhat) subtle dig at a racial group.

I’m not sure what a PP was getting at about Scrooge McDuck? An implication he came about his pool of money through being a penny-pinching Scot? That may well be the deeper intent behind the character. Given the historic racist pedigree of the Disney corporation and the man himself it wouldn’t surprise me in the least.

Saying that, the older disney films are still wonderful and the racist connotations went over my head.

I think (especially in Britain), they will tend to when you're a child watching them for the first time. At 5 or 6 I wouldn't have known what a Caribbean man sounded like in real life (well, real life in the 40s/50s), or that there was a stereotype with exaggerated accent and specific characteristics. I wouldn't have anything to connect the accent to.

A bit like in Tom and Jerry, I never thought that the black lady's legs you sometimes see was meant to be understood as a maid — I just assumed she own the house.

(Obviously I'm pleased that Disney have now said that some of their stereotyping isn't acceptable, but I do think that for a child audience, years after the film was made and in a different country means that you just don't have the capacity to understand that it's there.)

@LizzieW1969

*But black magic being racist, now that is stupid. not everything black is about racism.*

That’s right, too. I think it’s more to do with the idea that evil deeds mostly take place in the dark.

Yes! It's about dark and light. Not black and white skin colour

I am white but BAME friend has told me it is so that’s enough as far as I am concerned.

@Hoppinggreen

I am white but BAME friend has told me it is so that’s enough as far as I am concerned.

Can't you make up your own mind?

[quote wildeverose]@SimonJT

Have a day off hun [/quote]
He would probably quite like a day off from experiencing racism.

Of course I can make up my own mind but as a white person how can I say what is or isn’t offensive to non white people?
Like my husband can’t declare something not sexist

Song of the South is also racist.

@Hoppinggreen

Of course I can make up my own mind but as a white person how can I say what is or isn’t offensive to non white people? Like my husband can’t declare something not sexist

This is MN, a place where when Megahn Markle spoke about racist experiences at the place, posters were falling over themselves to excuse what she must have heard/misunderstood. Then had a nice chat amongst themselves about 'how black is she really'. There are some very ignorant posters on this forum, and that's as nice as I can be about it. In fact, last time I suggested some were ignorant I got a telling off so I'm already risking it .

@CounsellorTroi, why do you think Song of the South is racist? Is it because everything made in 1946? by USA mass media would be racist, everything by Disney or if specifically Song of the South then why, please?

Meghan Palace

@SpottyOrange

Yeah, cocked up the voting, sorry. As an aside, my dd(13) found out that that age differences between many of the rescued princesses and their hero princes is rather alarming

Also, this is brilliant for anyone who hasn't seen it.

Yes BrumBoo a black person is telling me something is offensive to black people and I am supposed to say “well I think I will make up my own mind about that as clearly I am better placed to decide”

[quote Zilla1]@CounsellorTroi, why do you think Song of the South is racist? Is it because everything made in 1946? by USA mass media would be racist, everything by Disney or if specifically Song of the South then why, please?[/quote]
Happily subservient black people.
Stereotypical racial dialects.
'Magical negro' trope.
The 'tar baby'.

@Zilla1

Maybe read this

www.theguardian.com/film/2019/nov/19/song-of-the-south-the-difficult-legacy-of-disneys-most-shocking-movie

A black former slave suggesting things were better 'in the old days' ie under slavery.

A tar baby.

[quote Zilla1]@CounsellorTroi, why do you think Song of the South is racist? Is it because everything made in 1946? by USA mass media would be racist, everything by Disney or if specifically Song of the South then why, please?[/quote]
It’s set in a sanitised and idealised past with wonderful relations between slaves and owners or former slaves and former owners depending on when you believe the film was set. And in 1946 Jim Crow as the norm in the South. Many many African Americans were enraged by the cliches and stereotypes. If you think it is not racist, why?

The wide-eyed goady faux-naivete on this thread is sad if not surprising. "But it's a cartoon orangutan talking to an Indian boy, how can it possibly have any hidden racist connotations?!" I can practically see the smirks behind the keyboard.

Just because something isn't explicit, doesn't mean it's not there.

Others have been through the specifics, so for the hard of thinking here is a different example: We all know 'cunt' is a horrible insult. We also know that 'See you next Tuesday' is a subtler way of calling someone a cunt (C U Next Tuesday).

Just because someone says "See you next Tuesday" rather than cunt doesn't mean they're just being polite and saying when they'll next see you.

I feel some posters on this thread may struggle to grasp the concept, but I've tried.

@Branleuse

Surely everyone knows walt disney was a massive racist. Surprised he hasnt been cancelled. Saying that, the older disney films are still wonderful and the racist connotations went over my head. I dont think theyre worse than other stuff from the same sort of time. Its quite interesting to look at this sort of imagery and how it shows prevailing attitudes of the time, and also how much has changed since then. Herge and tintin have got warnings on some books. Enid Blyton etc.

I'm reading 'the chalet school' books to DD at the moment after many MN recommendations. Oh my god, no wonder they are out of print.

In one of the early books a group of 14-15 year olds decide to read up on the klu klux klan to get tips on how to wage a vendetta!! That took some hasty redacting as I read it.

If you think it is not racist, why?

I expect the answer will be:

'Because Uncle Remus is nice and friendly so his character can't be racist because a racist would make his character bad because racists only think black people are bad and that's how you can always tell whether a thing is racist.'

I wonder if anyones noticed that stuff from that time period was mostly massively sexist too, and VERY little gay representation

Had read the article at the time though I'm not sure if it was this article that was rewritten or another one published by the Guardian around the same time that that said it was set during slavery when I don't think it was.

I've not seen the film for many years but recall a film with a leading black character in a 1946 film with real agency and, for the time, some positive relations between Black and white characters which I don't think was the norm in mainstream USA media in 1946? I'd need to rewatch it to understand whether the 'old days' must be conflated with during slavery. Agree about the tar baby. Am not sure whether the 'magical' is fair or whether this film was so early in the history of that trope that it's the later accretion to the trope that's the problem.

I think there were many Black activists and groups that welcomed it when it was made. I'm no apologist for this film and see many of its problems though I think my family viewed it positively. Will need to rematch Cabin in the Sky and Stormy Weather to see if these stand the test of time.

@JesusInTheCabbageVan, then you suspect incorrectly. It's because I recall a leading black character with real agency and elements of positive interactions between Black and white characters and the setting is restoration rather than during slavery though could be wrong as I've not seen it for c40 years. I'm no apologist for the film though even though the setting is the USA South, I don't think this is ranked high on my recollection of racist films and TV from USA and UK I've seen made in the 1940s or even the 1950s, 1960s... My recollection is imperfect but I don't recall many mainstream films not set in the USA south where Black leading characters appear to have agency nor with positive relations between Black and white characters.

We all know 'cunt' is a horrible insult. We also know that 'See you next Tuesday' is a subtler way of calling someone a cunt (C U Next Tuesday).

But actually I didn’t know that before, and that’s not faux-naivety, it’s the truth. Sometimes, people genuinely don’t know things.