Photo ID needed to vote? Please no.

[flashbac]

The government are bringing in (photo) voter ID meaning you'll need to show your passport or driving licence when going to cast your vote.

By all means reform the postal voting system but not this. Not everyone drives or goes abroad and this will bar many people from voting. Driving licences and passports are not cheap.

amp.theguardian.com/politics/2021/may/10/queens-speech-photo-id-future-elections-social-care?

Lots of people in support of not having voter ID (going by SM) are the same people that endlessly proclaim how rubbish the UK are at everything. Always blathering on about how much better the rest of the world do, well, everything - except this one issue... where the UK are world leading at not having voter fraud etc and ability to vote. It won't prevent fraud, it will lessen it.

We endlessly update systems to protect ourselves as society evolves. This is late to the party and required for people to have more confidence in outcomes of elections.

Much of the additional cost was because the ID card wasn’t kept simple
If you make it really simple, it”ll be cheap, but that will make it much easier to forge.
Anti forgery technology in the card doesn’t come cheap. If you make a simple card with a photo in it and no data content that would be much easier to forge.

Much of the additional cost was because the ID card wasn’t kept simple
If you make it really simple, it”ll be cheap, but that will make it much easier to forge.
Anti forgery technology in the card doesn’t come cheap. If you make a simple card with a photo in it and no data content that would be much easier to forge.

You need it for opening bank accounts, getting a job. What do you do to prove your identity?

You do not need a passport to get a job.

@coffeefi

I don't agree but how do people who don't have a passport get by?

You need it for opening bank accounts, getting a job. What do you do to prove your identity?

There is a range of documents you can use for these purposes if you don’t have photo ID.

@Moondust001

Perhaps Hong Kong is not the right place to cite if you want us to use identity cards. We all saw the pro-democracy protesters getting dragged off to mainland China and imprisoned, you know.

And we all saw Boris trying to sneak in legislation to curtail the right to protest a few weeks ago. Are you absolutely sure that we are that far away from them?

Not to mention illegally shutting down Parliament, and lying to the Head of State.

@coffeefi

I don't agree but how do people who don't have a passport get by?

You need it for opening bank accounts, getting a job. What do you do to prove your identity?

Banks have a list of suitable documents for people with no passport or driving licence, but some staff are unaware.

You don't need a passport to get a job (although again, not everyone is properly trained/aware).

Much of the additional cost was because the ID card wasn’t kept simple
If you make it really simple, it”ll be cheap, but that will make it much easier to forge.
Anti forgery technology in the card doesn’t come cheap. If you make a simple card with a photo in it and no data content that would be much easier to forge.

@HalcyonSea. I don’t know much about life in Hong Kong but a quick Google told me that some ID cards were first introduced in 1949 and expanded to the whole population beginning in October 1950. So their introduction isn’t connected to the current regime, they’ve been the norm for 70 years.

@DynamoKev

but windrush was caused by a lack of an ID card No it wasn't. Windrush was caused by the Home Office's destruction of records and subsequent actions including lies. An ID card might (or might not) have helped highlight the incompetence of the Home Office but there's nothing to suggest it would have prevented Windrush. At least one of the Windrush victims had his passport confiscated - so no doubt the Home Office would have confiscated his ID card too.

Windrush was exacerbated by the Home Office destruction of records and subsequent actions.

But the core problem was that there was no clear way to prove citizenship. Half the world, including AFAIK most if not all of continental Europe, has some kind of population registry and ID cards. Guess what? These systems are an UNDISPUTABLE record of your citizenship and, once your citizenship is recorded there, no amount of record destruction cockups and lies can take that away. I am no aware of countries with ID cards deporting their own citizens because they couldn't prove they were citizens - are you?

Ours is really an odd country.We are proud we don't have compulsory ID like those pesky Europeans, but are we sure that's the case? How does one prove citizenship without a non-compulsory passport? The truth is: it's incredibly harder, sometimes impossible.

Those born after 1981 are not automatically citizens just for being born in the UK.
So take the case of Mr A, British citizen because he was born in 1981 from foreign parents legally settled here (or whatever the legal term is).
Mr A's son, B, was born in 2001, and Mr B's son, C, in 2021, all in the UK.

Please explain to me how C proves he is a British citizen, if he doesn't have the records showing that A's parents, ie his great-grandparents, were legally settled in the UK when his grandfather was born.

Compulsory ID for voting is trickier. In the absence of a compulsory ID card, making ID compulsory for voting means restricting the vote of certain categories of people, typically the poorer ones who don't drive and don't travel abroad. That's why in the US Republicans are so keen on these restrictions.

@DynamoKev

Much of the additional cost was because the ID card wasn’t kept simple If you make it really simple, it”ll be cheap, but that will make it much easier to forge. Anti forgery technology in the card doesn’t come cheap. If you make a simple card with a photo in it and no data content that would be much easier to forge.

The Spanish ID card costs €12, but is free when you change your address or are entitled to certain benefits. www.dnielectronico.es/PortalDNIe/PRF1_Cons02.action?pag=REF_480&id_menu=7

The Italian one costs €22.20
www.comune.milano.it/servizi/fare-la-carta-di-identita

German ID cards are AFAIK among the most expensive, they cost €45-50 when issued by a German consulate in the UK (no idea if they are cheaper in Germany)
uk.diplo.de/uk-en/02/-fees

In France it's free
www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/N358

You see, it needn't cost crazy amounts.

After all, in Britain it costs £34 to get a provisional driving licence; renewing an expired licence costs £14
www.gov.uk/driving-licence-fees

@DynamoKev

Me: but windrush was caused by a lack of an ID card

You: No it wasn't. Windrush was caused by the Home Office's destruction of records and subsequent actions including lies.
An ID card might (or might not) have helped highlight the incompetence of the Home Office but there's nothing to suggest it would have prevented Windrush.
At least one of the Windrush victims had his passport confiscated - so no doubt the Home Office would have confiscated his ID card too.

The records destroyed by the Home Office were the 1960/70s era ships’ original landing cards. I believe that ID cards would have prevented Windrush because that is documentation the immigrating person can keep and as needed, renew, to prove they have right to reside in the U.K.
The Windrush-era victim, Ken Morgan, that had his passport confiscated was in 1994, well before Windrush scandal happened. And actually it turned out he shouldn’t have had a British passport because he wasn’t a British citizen after all as he had to apply for it in 2018. But an ID card might have helped...

@DynamoKev

It is worth noting that every legal immigrant since 2008 has been issued an ID card, called a BRP. Or biometric residence permit. It is now required for EU/EEA nationals due to Brexit as part of the settlement scheme.

The BRP is photo ID that states type of visa and expiration date, or ILR and no expiration date. (ILR is what the Windrushers had).

Not one immigrant with a valid BRP has been wrongfully deported. Not one.

[quote PlanDeRaccordement]@DynamoKev

Me: but windrush was caused by a lack of an ID card

You: No it wasn't. Windrush was caused by the Home Office's destruction of records and subsequent actions including lies.
An ID card might (or might not) have helped highlight the incompetence of the Home Office but there's nothing to suggest it would have prevented Windrush.
At least one of the Windrush victims had his passport confiscated - so no doubt the Home Office would have confiscated his ID card too.

The records destroyed by the Home Office were the 1960/70s era ships’ original landing cards. I believe that ID cards would have prevented Windrush because that is documentation the immigrating person can keep and as needed, renew, to prove they have right to reside in the U.K.
The Windrush-era victim, Ken Morgan, that had his passport confiscated was in 1994, well before Windrush scandal happened. And actually it turned out he shouldn’t have had a British passport because he wasn’t a British citizen after all as he had to apply for it in 2018. But an ID card might have helped...[/quote]
As someone whose right to work and live in UK will be solely in hands of Home office from July and I cannot prove it without the home office providing it, including at the airport, I can categorically state that lack of physical thing held by the person feels dangerous. Because it is dangerous. Not so long ago home office deleted another set of data. They have incredible amount of data issue events. Whether it's a leak or a loss.

I am absolutely behind the opinion that Windrush would not happen on the scale it did if the people were issued a physical proof so they could then argue without having to provide the most ridiculous amount of proof of legal residency.

@SchrodingersImmigrant
Just wishing you Bon Chance with the Home Office and I hope your paperwork is all stamped approved and you get a lovely shiny BRP with no delays or issues.

[quote PlanDeRaccordement]@SchrodingersImmigrant
Just wishing you Bon Chance with the Home Office and I hope your paperwork is all stamped approved and you get a lovely shiny BRP with no delays or issues.[/quote]
I can't get BRP unfortunately. The best I can get is citizenship unless they again move goal posts😂

I am just glad DH got the new settled status BRC instead of his previous Eea fm BRC🙄 Short story... Pita. but at least it wasn't 80 page document😂

Ok. Well I hope you get that citizenship then! My brother is 1yr away from filing for British citizenship. He plans to get a British passport directly afterwards to have that physical proof on hand.

Oooh 🤞 for him! I can't wait😁
And I bloody would of I was him. For future, hope he has a great ceremony and his application goes in withoit hiccups!

After all, in Britain it costs £34 to get a provisional driving licence; renewing an expired licence costs £14
www.gov.uk/driving-licence-fees

Or £17 (plus physical photo taking cost) if you don’t have a passport so have to do it by post

Still, £17 + photo cost every 10 years, if I remember correctly, doesn't exactly break the bank

@ParentOfOne

Still, £17 + photo cost every 10 years, if I remember correctly, doesn't exactly break the bank

No. But it’s an additional cost because you can’t afford a passport.

@EvilPea, the point I was trying to make is that ID cards don't necessarily need the cost crazy amounts, so the argument that ID cards must cost a lot in order to be secure doesn't hold much water.

This is an odd country. We delude ourselves into thinking that we have more privacy than our European cousins because we don't have id cards. Yet our intelligence services engage in more extensive surveillance than their European counterparts, private companies have much more data on us and our spending habits (eg credit reference agencies are not as pervasive in many European countries), we are one of the countries with most CCTVs, etc.

@ParentOfOne

Still, £17 + photo cost every 10 years, if I remember correctly, doesn't exactly break the bank

Some people can't afford an extra £17 on any given week

Some people can't afford an extra £17 on any given week

That’s why you have 18yrs to save up that £17 so your DC can get their first ID card. Then that DC has 10yrs to save up another £17 to renew it.

I just do not believe this “some people so poor they don’t have two pennies” line.

And even if I did believe, ah yes, £1.70 per year is far too much to expect a poor person to save....then voila simple solution is to waive the fee for those on low incomes/disability benefits. Like we waive all visa fees for asylum refugees.....

[quote ParentOfOne]@EvilPea, the point I was trying to make is that ID cards don't necessarily need the cost crazy amounts, so the argument that ID cards must cost a lot in order to be secure doesn't hold much water.

This is an odd country. We delude ourselves into thinking that we have more privacy than our European cousins because we don't have id cards. Yet our intelligence services engage in more extensive surveillance than their European counterparts, private companies have much more data on us and our spending habits (eg credit reference agencies are not as pervasive in many European countries), we are one of the countries with most CCTVs, etc.[/quote]
Almost all government projects in this country, unlike many on mainland Europe, seem to have to involve a private business supplier for reasons of corruption and Thatcherite dogma.
When DVLA fucked up so I couldn't renew my car tax online, the DVLA person on the phone said he had to ask Fujitsu as they ran the system and he didn't know how it worked. Fujitsu didn't know either and it took a formal complaint to sort it out (albeit none of the promised deadlines for action were met). I was lucky I could still do it at the Post Office.
This is another example to add to how we do things differently in the Country and why it would be an expensive fuck up and no-one would care about the individual mistakes.
We don't have the same reliance on an established and functional bureaucracy as a lot of our European neighbours because successive Tory and Tory-lite governments have abolished public services and replaced them with a skeleton that just farms out work to inept private enterprises.
You may remember Fujitsu from the Horizon scandal -
www.computerweekly.com/news/252496560/Fujitsu-bosses-knew-about-Post-Office-Horizon-IT-flaws-says-insider