Photo ID needed to vote? Please no.

[flashbac]

The government are bringing in (photo) voter ID meaning you'll need to show your passport or driving licence when going to cast your vote.

By all means reform the postal voting system but not this. Not everyone drives or goes abroad and this will bar many people from voting. Driving licences and passports are not cheap.

amp.theguardian.com/politics/2021/may/10/queens-speech-photo-id-future-elections-social-care?

The solution to problem for someone not having photo ID has been dealt with - they will be able to apply for a free photo ID for voting.

We're not all being asked to apply for a photo ID just to vote, just if you don't have the usual everyday ID that generally the majority of people do have - those people would need to apply for voter ID card.

Seems sensible to me. Always find it odd turning up to vote and just saying my name and ticked off a list - feels off and open to abuse.

But you can say with conviction that voter fraud is virtually non-existent in the UK even though you have not a shred of evidence to prove that either?

The way in which voter fraud happens means that it is virtually undetectable, so you can have no idea of the true extent of it.

Oh for the love of God the cards can't be free even if you don't have to pay for it. The taxpayer will have to fork out money to set the systems up and create the card, no doubt to some Tory donor who is a middle man and then another Tory donor or politician who has a dodgy company registered that doesn't even have any business in that sort of thing (for reference see PPE procurement).

Each card will probably cost the public purse a huge amount per person. I'd rather the money was spent more appropriately.

By 'you' I don't necessarily mean you specifically Dynamo, it's a general 'you' to the people who assert that voter fraud is a non-issue.

@Marmaladeagain

The solution to problem for someone not having photo ID has been dealt with - they will be able to apply for a free photo ID for voting.

We're not all being asked to apply for a photo ID just to vote, just if you don't have the usual everyday ID that generally the majority of people do have - those people would need to apply for voter ID card.

Seems sensible to me. Always find it odd turning up to vote and just saying my name and ticked off a list - feels off and open to abuse.

But if personation was a widespread issue, we’d know. This is a “solution” to a problem that barely exists.

Well voter fraud isn't without financial implications, trying to track it down etc So better to spend the money on making fraud more difficult rather than tracking down fraud.

Also other longer term issues with a voting public potentially not seeing the result that ties in with their day to day lived experience of how people voted. So best to avoid that, for the love of god....etc

@SunflowersAndLavender

But you can say with conviction that voter fraud is virtually non-existent in the UK even though you have not a shred of evidence to prove that either?

The way in which voter fraud happens means that it is virtually undetectable, so you can have no idea of the true extent of it.

Anyone who says fraud may be an issue that this change will tackle has just undermined the results of the last election and the Brexit referendum. Surely the 80 seat majority is dodgy then?

Anyone who says fraud may be an issue that this change will tackle has just undermined the results of the last election and the Brexit referendum. Surely the 80 seat majority is dodgy then?

Only if you believe the fraudsters are largely Tory. It could just as easily be the case that the true vote minus any fraudulent votes merely results in a lower vote count to any of the other parties.

There is not poin

@Marmaladeagain

Well voter fraud isn't without financial implications, trying to track it down etc So better to spend the money on making fraud more difficult rather than tracking down fraud.

Also other longer term issues with a voting public potentially not seeing the result that ties in with their day to day lived experience of how people voted. So best to avoid that, for the love of god....etc

Whether that makes any sense or not depends on the relative costs surely? It also depends upon the actual incidence of fraud and how prevalent fraud actually is. Do you have the figures?

I don't think the issue is with my next door neighbour walking up to the polling booth and pretending to be me, then I come along an hour later to find that my name has already been crossed off the list. While I am sure that happens, it can't happen often as we don't hear about it.

What I do think probably happens rather a lot, is the scenario that a poster above mentioned. One person or an orchestrated group of people moves among their family/friends/community collecting polling details from people who either aren't likely to bother to vote themselves (possibly even offering them cash as an incentive to hand over their vote) and then sending imposters to vote on their behalf.

I think this tactic will be particularly prevalent when the chief motivation is to manipulate the outcome at a very local level, rather than trying to influence the outcome of which Prime Minister we end up with.

@SunflowersAndLavender

I don't think the issue is with my next door neighbour walking up to the polling booth and pretending to be me, then I come along an hour later to find that my name has already been crossed off the list. While I am sure that happens, it can't happen often as we don't hear about it.

What I do think probably happens rather a lot, is the scenario that a poster above mentioned. One person or an orchestrated group of people moves among their family/friends/community collecting polling details from people who either aren't likely to bother to vote themselves (possibly even offering them cash as an incentive to hand over their vote) and then sending imposters to vote on their behalf.

I think this tactic will be particularly prevalent when the chief motivation is to manipulate the outcome at a very local level, rather than trying to influence the outcome of which Prime Minister we end up with.

Do you have any evidence?

Since proof or evidence are being asked for? Where is the evidence that billions would be spent in issuing ID”s? I am pretty sure that digital photos are very cheap nowadays.

@blueangel19

Since proof or evidence are being asked for? Where is the evidence that billions would be spent in issuing ID”s? I am pretty sure that digital photos are very cheap nowadays.

The evidence for that comes from research and FOI requests around the previous failed national ID card scheme. It is of course true that if the scheme is limited to a simple voter ID card with a picture on it that can’t be used for anything else it should be cheap (and easy to forge).

Plus the free ID is only for people who does not have other ID.

@blueangel19

Plus the free ID is only for people who does not have other ID.

That’s true - although at various points in the thread we have been discussing the merits of a national photo id scheme too.

Do you have any evidence?

Only anecdotal. Do you have any evidence that's it's not happening?

@SunflowersAndLavender

But you can say with conviction that voter fraud is virtually non-existent in the UK even though you have not a shred of evidence to prove that either?

The way in which voter fraud happens means that it is virtually undetectable, so you can have no idea of the true extent of it.

So we are trying to address a problem without any idea of the extent of it. Does that sound wise to you? Because it doesn’t to me. As the OP opines, this smells like another scheme to help the governments mates get taxpayers money. It’s a wizard wheeze too, since we have no idea what is happening now, the scheme cannot possibly fail as there’s no possible way to know if it worked.

The Electoral Commission report on fraud after every election.

Please do read it here: www.electoralcommission.org.uk/who-we-are-and-what-we-do/our-views-and-research/our-research/electoral-fraud-data

It’s a non issue

@SunflowersAndLavender

Do you have any evidence?

Only anecdotal. Do you have any evidence that's it's not happening?

Same as you - anecdotal. But I do feel if it was a widespread issue we would hear about it, not least from other parties. My experience of being a Labour Party member was that they were red hot on any hint of skulduggery by any other party. I accept that there is little hard evidence in either direction though.

so voting is the only area in life where (given the opportunity/loose controls on proving identity) people that are likely to cheat for advantage, won't cheat. That would be wildly naïve.

All areas of life - people will find loopholes to either influence directly or indirectly from a given outcome.

Why would that be different with voting? People that will cheat, will cheat. It's not directed against people that don't cheat. Bit like why women don't want men in loos - not because they think all men are potentially voyeurs etc - just there will be some in amongst men etc

Human nature is what it is - people will accept providing evidence to prevent others cheating.

Yes photo ID for people without ID might actually be useful for them - don't you need photo ID to open a bank account for example?

@pheebumbalatti

I think if you're too useless to sort out a passport you probably shouldn't be allowed to vote.

Are you going to pay for my passport?

Find someone who fits the criteria to sign my photo?

To clarify - that's not the reason I don't want girls sharing private spaces with men... there are countless reasons why that shouldn't happen, but that's just one poor example above. Majority of men would not even question why they don't go into women's private spaces.

The government has previously said people would be able to apply for a voting ID card from their local council, although this would have to be done before polling day.

My council can't even arrange to have my bins emptied each fortnight, something that is easily foreseeable & predictable. If they can't arrange to empty my bins, I have little hope they can provided everyone with a 'free' photo ID card. It's run by the Tories, of course.

There are 343 local authorities in England, each one of them is going to have to set up their own ID card service (no doubt out-sourced to some dubious company based in the Cayman Islands), and even if they could all get a perfect system up and running, the cost would far-outweigh any benefit, given that there is little actual evidence of voter fraud.