Photo ID needed to vote? Please no.

[flashbac]

The government are bringing in (photo) voter ID meaning you'll need to show your passport or driving licence when going to cast your vote.

By all means reform the postal voting system but not this. Not everyone drives or goes abroad and this will bar many people from voting. Driving licences and passports are not cheap.

amp.theguardian.com/politics/2021/may/10/queens-speech-photo-id-future-elections-social-care?

@SunflowersAndLavender

More difficult when we don't have ID cards, I mean. Especially with things like the NHS and the benefits system, fraud is rife.

*eyeroll*

Got the stats to back that up?

This is actually a very valid reason NOT to have ID cards - they could become a requirement for access to the NHS and can you imagine being denied treatment because you forgot your ID card?

@Wotsitsarecheesy is spot on with the point that it is the idea of a national database including sensitive information which would be vulnerable to hacking, in the hands of a government which are frankly incompetent (and in fairness I wouldn't trust such a system in the hands of any govt).

As for the cost side - I can think of hundreds of more important uses for the spectacular amount of money this would cost to implement, look at how bad poverty is in this country and they want to piss away millions on ID cards to solve a problem they don't really even have any proof of? They couldn't afford £200m for a payrise for nurses but this they can find the money for?!

I dread to think which private companies stand to profit from this and whose pockets they're lining with cash to ensure they do...

forget your ID card, what like you forget your phone?

If ID is required, people will remember.

As everything is going digital it will be heading that way no doubt. Everything we do is digitally traceable via that no doubt - I have more concerns about that than I do about someone without ID being able to obtain photo ID which may help with other areas of their life.

Medical staff won't be in situation where they refuse treatment, they might chase for payment for someone that was ineligible maybe.
The NHS have departments trying and failing to do that currently anyhow.

@Person23
Defrauding the NHS is a problem and it costs more each year than the cost to do ID cards and as much as the £200m to give the nurses a raise.

From fullfact.org/health/health-tourists-how-much-do-they-cost-and-who-pays/

“'Deliberate' use of the NHS—use by those who come here specifically to receive free treatment or who come for other reasons but take advantage of the system when they're here—is hard to quantify. It's thought to be very roughly between £110 million and £280 million a year.”

“The research splits the 'deliberate' health tourists into two sub-groups:

Deliberate intent: Those travelling to the UK for urgent, acute expensive surgery where they'll go straight to A&E: £60-80 million

Taking advantage: Those accessing more routine treatments, having been able to register with a GP and visiting on a regular basis. This includes British expats who may be chargeable but who have an active GP registration: £50-200 million”

The government already has the systems to set up for cards with "private partner" involvement. Sopra steria is the one for immigration, they're easy to look up - pre-COVID they were using library staff to scan documents. Some countries, like the US, basically just have 'non-drivers license', you apply through the same site like a provisional/learner's permit, it has the same stuff, just without the ability to learn to drive. This would be great for young people as unlike carrying a provisional for years for ID without learning which impacts later insurance, they could just get the ID they want and have it universally accepted unlike citizen cards.

The government are the ones who run for passports and driver's license and bus passes and various others. They're already running Biometric databases. Yeah, it's not perfect, but it's already there, no point in arguing whether or not they can do it, they're already doing it.

Ensuring everyone can access services is part of government responsibility. The government keeps putting in new laws that requires places to verify ID, voting is just one in a long list of recent changes to this. Maybe making sure there is a universally accepted ID that's not connected to driving, passports, or whether you can get someone of a "suitable profession" to sign for you might be worthwhile to some of us than a lot of the nonsense that comes out of the government spending. Maybe not a priority, but having been in the 'fucked over because of not having accepted ID' category, I''m thinking some aren't aware of how vulnerable one can be when you can't verify your identity to meet the new standards.

@Marmaladeagain

Yes photo ID for people without ID might actually be useful for them - don't you need photo ID to open a bank account for example?

There are very many older people who opened bank accounts years ago without needing photo ID. This idea cuts people out. People like my Nan who never learnt to drive because her husband did that, and never went abroad so didn’t have a passport, but she still voted every election. There are still plenty of women of that generation and older who have no photo ID. It’s also not easy to persuade people who haven’t had photo ID all their life that they suddenly need it to carry out relatively mundane things.

So, looking at who this shuts out at voting: Older people, specifically older women, younger people who can’t yet afford to learn to drive, like students or people from disadvantaged families, people who don’t have a passport and again can’t afford it, people who cannot drive due to illness and disability, women in controlling relationships, people who are poor. And it’s the Tories pushing for this

I’m so annoyed all the other parties are tearing this apart! They should be. This is going backwards.

@PlanDeRaccordement your link says it is hard to estimate the cost - it might not be that much at all.

It also says
Research commissioned by the Department for Health has estimated the gross cost of 'deliberate' health tourism for urgent treatment in England to anywhere between £110 million and £280 million. Which barely compares to the £1.8 billion gross cost for 'normal' use of the NHS. But these figures are rough, as the report makes clear: "[it's] impossible to estimate with confidence

Impossible to estimate with confidence is just another way of saying they haven’t got a clue.

forget your ID card, what like you forget your phone?
I do forget my phone from time to time.

The cost of national ID cards (just the setup, not ongoing) was estimated at 5billion - and that was then.

The issue, as we all well know, is that adding any barrier to voting - even one that can be overcome for free - will stop people voting. And the people most likely to be affected are those that i) do not already have photo ID, and ii) are less politically engaged

Honestly don’t care about people who can’t even be arsed to get photo ID.

If they can provide them for free for anyone who wishes to apply for one then I'm not sure I've got an issue with it.

Obviously once they cost then this becomes an accessibility issue for some.

So it's one generation of older people that wouldn't be able to cope, but then everyone coming after would understand the system as all have mobile phones etc.

So support in place to ensure that any of the elderly people unable to access photo ID are helped access it.

People need to be engaged with politics - otherwise end up with Australian system where people just tick something because they're legally obliged. I am not in favour of people being forced to vote even if they have no opinion, that ends up with a default position that supports maybe who their parents voted for etc.

I don't like the whole women should vote because .... etc

Not voting is an active decision. If numpties stopped voting in Labour despite their policies being actively against women, some change would be forced to happen.

Not voting is a powerful way to shape the politics and parties to form policies we wish reflected. Taking votes for granted is what's led to Labour policies being enacted in schools, despite no -one voting Labour policies in. We have shared toilets on the agenda etc

Time after time you hear posters saying they hate Labour's stance on women, but will continue to vote for them.... don't vote, and shape politics - withholding a vote is a decision.

So if people aren't engaged in politics and their "friend" is voting on their behalf without needing photo ID, that to me is abusing the system.

It's doesn't need to be passport or driving license. You can have a work ID badge.

I live in Australia and everyone MUST have a form of photo ID. If you don't drive, you can get a proof of age card (ie I8+ card.) Costs you $71 and lasts until you look substantially different (eg: have aged 30 years). And you need photo ID for so many things. And you need to either show your voter ID, or the electoral roll mailing slip (with your ID barcode on it) when you vote. To make sure you a) DO vote, and b) only vote once. And also to ensure only citizens vote.

Also want to add that in Australia, deceased people don't have a habit of climbing out of their graves to cast votes.

@Iggly
The “impossible to estimate with confidence” is explaining why they have such a big range of £100m to £280m, instead of a single figure, it does not mean that they “don’t have a clue”.

This is ridiculous.
Let’s say it is way too difficult for people to apply for and get photo ID. Is it also way too difficult for them to sign up and put their name on the electoral register? Shall we get rid of that to make things easier?
Then everyone and his dog can vote regardless of who they actually are or where they live.
These things need to be done properly otherwise, what’s the point?

@DynamoKev

The cost of national ID cards (just the setup, not ongoing) was estimated at 5billion - and that was then.

Really? That is shocking, I can’t believe in a country that has 55m adults of voting age it would cost £5 billion to implement a simple ID card. Are you sure you aren’t quoting the old figure of £5.5bn from 2011 when the ID card idea was scrapped by Cameron’s government? That figure was over 10years, so £550m/yr., and was for an ID card that doubled as a passport within the EU. A no issue now due to Brexit. Much of the additional cost was because the ID card wasn’t kept simple.

@UsedUpUsername

The issue, as we all well know, is that adding any barrier to voting - even one that can be overcome for free - will stop people voting. And the people most likely to be affected are those that i) do not already have photo ID, and ii) are less politically engaged

Honestly don’t care about people who can’t even be arsed to get photo ID.

Which is why the tories fucking love the idea. The less people engaged in politics the better.

Fuck sake.

So, looking at who this shuts out at voting: Older people, specifically older women, younger people who can’t yet afford to learn to drive, like students or people from disadvantaged families, people who don’t have a passport and again can’t afford it, people who cannot drive due to illness and disability, women in controlling relationships, people who are poor. And it’s the Tories pushing for this

Sorry but this is utter BS. The postal vote will still exist and is how nondrivers, disabled and elderly currently vote. In fact anyone who can’t be bothered to get a free ID card, can just sign up to do postal vote.

@UsedUpUsername

The issue, as we all well know, is that adding any barrier to voting - even one that can be overcome for free - will stop people voting. And the people most likely to be affected are those that i) do not already have photo ID, and ii) are less politically engaged

Honestly don’t care about people who can’t even be arsed to get photo ID.

Congratulations on not giving a shit about poorer people. It’s not a question on not being arsed, it’s not having the spare £75+ for a passport, or be able to afford driving license and the ridiculous cost of driving tests and lessons. Well fucking done on your complete lack of empathy.

I'm not opposed to a free citizen ID card, especially if the only information on it was an NI or NHS number, which are issued automatically, and all someone had to provide was the photo.

@AnnaAurelia

In Hong Kong we all (locals and expats) have ID cards (known as HKID). I thought it was really strange when I first came here but 4 years on I think it’s brilliant. Everyone gets an identity card that you use for absolutely everything no need to use a driving license/passport (even in the airport, you just swipe your HKID although obviously you have to have your passport for the other end of the flight!). I’d be in favour of having a similar system here, it means no one ever has to pay for ID and it can be used for voting etc! But requiring people to in effect pay to vote would be dreadful

And naturally the Chinese government will never abuse these in any way. Of course not.

My MIL is bedbound. Shockingly, she doesn't have a driving licence any more! Nor does she have a passport. We have had enough of a hassle just trying to get a signature waiver for her postal vote ("Yes, I know you said she can't sign, but we need a updated signature for our records...") so god knows how hard this is going to make things. Why should she be denied her vote because her physical health is poor.

Exactly Merlin. My DM has early onset dementia and struggles with all admin and practical stuff but still is politically engaged and wants to vote and should absolutely be able to, she is going to be directly affected by policies about care and funding. But even logging onto a website to go on the register is problematic, even ringing the line and navigating the press 1 for such and such department, impossible. Without me she wouldn’t be able to register. There are a lot of vulnerable older people who don’t have anyone to do this for them. Ditto the signature, my Dad has Huntingdons disease and has been unable to hold a pen, let alone sign a document for many years, yet very few places seem able to accept this, even agencies that deal with disabilities.

@Marmaladeagain

The solution to problem for someone not having photo ID has been dealt with - they will be able to apply for a free photo ID for voting.

We're not all being asked to apply for a photo ID just to vote, just if you don't have the usual everyday ID that generally the majority of people do have - those people would need to apply for voter ID card.

Seems sensible to me. Always find it odd turning up to vote and just saying my name and ticked off a list - feels off and open to abuse.

Having to provide ID will not prevent voter fraud.

Having to provide ID will deny people their right to vote.

So what's the point of spending millions on a system that won't prevent what it claims it will, reduce voter turnout and/or deny people their basic fundamental rights to vote in democratic society?

As I've said before. If you're willing and happy to denied your vote because someone invented a solution to a problem that doesn't exist and a circumstance beyond your control means you are unable to vote, then great. That's very generous of you.

But I'm not willing to have my vote potentially taken away from me for the reason they're giving.

I don't agree but how do people who don't have a passport get by?

You need it for opening bank accounts, getting a job. What do you do to prove your identity?