Page 26 | To be cross with our childminder?

ranging · 2021-05-09T08:29:22+00:00

Name changed. DD has been going to the same childminder since she was 8 months and she is now 2.5. She absolutely loves it there and she's very kind and friendly, I get lots of crafts home that DD does and they go out and do a lot. DD is going through a challenging phase, not doing as she's told, very stubborn, sometimes hitting and biting. When I picked her up on Friday, the childminder said that she had taken her shoes and socks off in the car and was refusing to put them back on, so she took her out the car and put him on the (wet and muddy) ground in her bare feet and told her basically that's what you get for not putting your shoes on. She apparently got upset by this and then finally allowed her to put her shoes back on. I was a bit taken aback by this, AIBU to tell her I am not happy about this at all? I'm not sure if this is an ok tactic to use with a toddler but I never would and don't want anyone else to treat her like that either.

EarringsandLipstick · 09/05/2021 22:24

Back on the hitting biting resistant toddler

Betty she's a toddler. I have often had cranky kicking children. Firmly not roughly, I would hold legs & put on shoes. No fuss, other than to clearly say 'no kicking'.

God, talk about drama! She's not a 6ft arms-flailing male.

I've dealt with many toddlers & had no issue. No, mine didn't bite / hit particularly but definitely were resistant or cranky or flailing around.

Allthereindeersaregirls · 09/05/2021 22:24

@Planty13

Huh? My son is 2.5 and always takes his socks and shoes off in the car. I just put them back on. He is still so little and cannot put them back on himself anyway?? That seems cruel of the childminder

And if he kicks, screams, scratches you and acts like a caged wild animal whilst you try to put them back on? What do you then?

Nanny2many · 09/05/2021 22:25

I don’t think this is a natural consequence but more of a punishment. It also sounds like it came from a place of anger or at least irritation (understandably) but I think discipline can go of course if lead by emotion.

Pumperthepumper · 09/05/2021 22:25

@WaltzingBetty

Because the context makes it clear. And before you tell me I'm wrong, I'm a parent to 3 DC & can attest to them knowing the difference.

Ok so they are capable of contextual reasoning and evaluating an adult's motivation as you and Pumpers say but incapable of very basic operant learning that has been shown to work in insects (and toddlers)

You and Pumpers should publish this.
It's groundbreaking science

You’re just making stuff up again, and getting into a tizz about it. A kid can absolutely tell when it’s lifted in joy or in anger - but it can’t rationalise why ‘not putting shoes on equals anger’. That kid won’t know why the childminder put them in the mud with no shoes on because the 2.5 year old would have had a fantastic reason (to their little 2.5 year old brain) for taking their shoes off. They just can’t articulate it properly yet.

WaltzingBetty · 09/05/2021 22:26

What questions? What did I admit to knowing nothing about? It’s all garbage, it’s like when you repeatedly said I said the childminder should lock the kid in the car, it’s total nonsense.

What questions? What did I admit to knowing nothing about?

Honestly. If you can't read the thread yourself and review the questions where you've answered 'what?' 'I don't understand' etc then I can't help you.

It's not like you haven't seen them as you've responded

ForThePurposeOfTheTape · 09/05/2021 22:26

I used that tactic with Dc2 and it worked a treat. If only I had realised that I should have done it earlier.

The buggy punishment isn't going to be as effective because in her eyes you are insisting on shoes and socks just because you're the adult and make the rules. Doesn't she squirm or thrash? Can't be comfortable doing that either.

The few seconds of discomfort (wet feet) helps her learn that it's in her interests to wear shoes and that adults don't insist on it for the sake of insisting. Many a parent has had to let their child go out without a coat so they learn why they wear coats. You get strange looks from other at first but it usually nips things in the bud quickly.

Beseigedbykillersquirrels · 09/05/2021 22:26

Which experts believe punishing a child helps them learn faster? Which experts believe using your physical advantage to force a child to do something they don’t want to do is beneficial to a child’s learning?

Ah, ok, but using your words to force/trick a child into doing something is high commended?

One last time. The child didn't want to wear socks and shoes. The childminder went along with this and lifted the child out of the car as she no doubt has done countless times before (because, despite what you think, not every 2 year old can do this themselves safely. Heck, they might not even be able to make a link between them moving their body and it moving according to you). The child's precious feet touched the ground momentarily. She then decided that she prefers to in fact wear shoes. The childminder cleaned her feet and put on her socks and shoes.
Which part of this, exactly, is punishment? If the childminder had wrestled the shoes onto the child that would be ok because the child's feet wouldn't have made contact with the earth's surface? Or if the minder had tricked and manipulated the child into putting her shoes on, that's preferable to allowing the child to do what she wanted to do in a safe, controlled risk environment with the childminder on hand to talk it through with her, clean her up and help her put her shoes back on?
Please don't come back with more guff about bananas or the wicked act of lifting a child out of a car again because it is just such nonsense.

Pumperthepumper · 09/05/2021 22:27

@WaltzingBetty

A child doesn’t know if they’re lifted in joy or in anger? Are you sure? You're the one that said lifting was forceful and a punishment You're the one that has assumed the childminder is angry You're the one that assumed the childminder was taking the child indoors you're the one that assumed the child's shoes were painful

You clearly like assuming/creating a convenient narrative.

I’m the one who posted theories as to why a 2.5 year old might not have had the brain development of the presumably adult childminder. That’s it.

EarringsandLipstick · 09/05/2021 22:27

And if he kicks, screams, scratches you and acts like a caged wild animal whilst you try to put them back on? What do you then?

Where does OP say this happened?

It seems so many are completely exaggerating here.

OP described some typical toddler resistant behaviour, not this.

If I did have to deal with this, I'd quite easily manage their arms / legs using my own body & put the shoes on.

Then yes, I'd be dealing carefully with such extreme behaviour myself as CM (if I was one) and with the DP.

Pumperthepumper · 09/05/2021 22:28

@WaltzingBetty

What questions? What did I admit to knowing nothing about? It’s all garbage, it’s like when you repeatedly said I said the childminder should lock the kid in the car, it’s total nonsense.

What questions? What did I admit to knowing nothing about?

Honestly. If you can't read the thread yourself and review the questions where you've answered 'what?' 'I don't understand' etc then I can't help you.

It's not like you haven't seen them as you've responded

If I’ve responded then what’s the issue? I’ve asked you several times to post any questions I’ve missed and you won’t do it. Why not? Just repost anything I’ve missed and I will!

EarringsandLipstick · 09/05/2021 22:29

You and Pumpers should publish this.
It's groundbreaking science

Here you you again Betty with the nastiness.

Seriously, why?

WaltzingBetty · 09/05/2021 22:29

Betty she's a toddler. I have often had cranky kicking children. Firmly not roughly, I would hold legs & put on shoes. No fuss, other than to clearly say 'no kicking'.

Ok so I'll ask again as you keep ignoring the question, how is you physically restraining a child, forcing them to wear shoes they don't want and verbally chastising them not punishing,
but the childminder facilitating the child's choice not to wear shoes and then giving them to her when she changes her mind a punishment?

Almostascot · 09/05/2021 22:30

Well I’m feeling pretty good about my DS who is 2.5. I told him not to run with his bowl of cereal or he might fall. Of course, he fell, cereal everywhere, tears etc! Next day I give him his bowl he says ‘I careful mummy, no run’. So he learnt through natural consequences. According to pumper that is beyond the normal development for a child of his age. He’s a genius!! or maybe not....

I would totally support my CM if she did this...I would thank her.

FortniteBoysMum · 09/05/2021 22:30

Sounds perfectly fine to me. You wait a couple years until she doesn't want to get dressed for school which is making you late for work. I got sick of my boys doing it every morning so I put their clothes in their bags, the kids in their pj's in the car and drove to school. Told them once we arrived you have 5 minutes to change in the car or I take you in as you are. One got changed the other thought I was joking. Handed them over to the office and funny enough every morning after that he has got dressed for school without a problem. Only so many times you can ask and then if it doesn't put them in danger you show them why they need to do it such as if you do not wear your shoes you get dirty feet.

WaltzingBetty · 09/05/2021 22:30

@EarringsandLipstick

You and Pumpers should publish this. It's groundbreaking science

Here you you again Betty with the nastiness.

Seriously, why?

How is that nasty? It's true.

Your opinions defy all child development science.

But clearly you guys know better
You should publish

Pumperthepumper · 09/05/2021 22:30

@Beseigedbykillersquirrels

Which experts believe punishing a child helps them learn faster? Which experts believe using your physical advantage to force a child to do something they don’t want to do is beneficial to a child’s learning?

Ah, ok, but using your words to force/trick a child into doing something is high commended?

One last time. The child didn't want to wear socks and shoes. The childminder went along with this and lifted the child out of the car as she no doubt has done countless times before (because, despite what you think, not every 2 year old can do this themselves safely. Heck, they might not even be able to make a link between them moving their body and it moving according to you). The child's precious feet touched the ground momentarily. She then decided that she prefers to in fact wear shoes. The childminder cleaned her feet and put on her socks and shoes.
Which part of this, exactly, is punishment? If the childminder had wrestled the shoes onto the child that would be ok because the child's feet wouldn't have made contact with the earth's surface? Or if the minder had tricked and manipulated the child into putting her shoes on, that's preferable to allowing the child to do what she wanted to do in a safe, controlled risk environment with the childminder on hand to talk it through with her, clean her up and help her put her shoes back on?
Please don't come back with more guff about bananas or the wicked act of lifting a child out of a car again because it is just such nonsense.

But that is the punishment, and I’m sorry that you don’t like it - the punishment is the childminder using their physical advantage to lift the child out of the car to stand barefoot in the mud, to reach her a lesson. Again: that’s not something we would do to an elderly person with limited cognitive development. Because it would be pointless - unless you also think this 2.5 year old wouldn’t do exactly the same thing tomorrow?

WaltzingBetty · 09/05/2021 22:31

@Almostascot

Well I’m feeling pretty good about my DS who is 2.5. I told him not to run with his bowl of cereal or he might fall. Of course, he fell, cereal everywhere, tears etc! Next day I give him his bowl he says ‘I careful mummy, no run’. So he learnt through natural consequences. According to pumper that is beyond the normal development for a child of his age. He’s a genius!!

or maybe not....

I would totally support my CM if she did this...I would thank her.

He's a GENiUS!!

EarringsandLipstick · 09/05/2021 22:31

With your rationale about it, you would have never gotten pregnant or gave birth because of the physical discomfort!

What a completely idiotic comment.

But of a stretch to compare someone actively choosing to get pregnant as an adult, with this situation which doesn't involve choice & is in relation to a child.
🤦🏻‍♀️🤦🏻‍♀️

WaltzingBetty · 09/05/2021 22:32

But that is the punishment, and I’m sorry that you don’t like it - the punishment is the childminder using their physical advantage to lift the child out of the car to stand barefoot in the mud, to reach her a lesson. Again: that’s not something we would do to an elderly person with limited cognitive development. Because it would be pointless - unless you also think this 2.5 year old wouldn’t do exactly the same thing tomorrow?
It's impossible to have an informed discussion when you keep using terminology you clearly don't understand and can't explain

Pumperthepumper · 09/05/2021 22:33

@WaltzingBetty

But that is the punishment, and I’m sorry that you don’t like it - the punishment is the childminder using their physical advantage to lift the child out of the car to stand barefoot in the mud, to reach her a lesson. Again: that’s not something we would do to an elderly person with limited cognitive development. Because it would be pointless - unless you also think this 2.5 year old wouldn’t do exactly the same thing tomorrow? It's impossible to have an informed discussion when you keep using terminology you clearly don't understand and can't explain

Specifically what?

Pumperthepumper · 09/05/2021 22:34

@WaltzingBetty

But that is the punishment, and I’m sorry that you don’t like it - the punishment is the childminder using their physical advantage to lift the child out of the car to stand barefoot in the mud, to reach her a lesson. Again: that’s not something we would do to an elderly person with limited cognitive development. Because it would be pointless - unless you also think this 2.5 year old wouldn’t do exactly the same thing tomorrow? It's impossible to have an informed discussion when you keep using terminology you clearly don't understand and can't explain

I’ve got about fifteen minutes before I put my phone down for the night so if there’s anything you want me to answer then now’s your chance. Ideally without insults.

WaltzingBetty · 09/05/2021 22:34

But of a stretch to compare someone actively choosing to get pregnant as an adult, with this situation which doesn't involve choice & is in relation to a child.
But your solution of forcing them into shoes whilst verbally chastising them doesn't seem to be especially focussed on 'choice'?

EarringsandLipstick · 09/05/2021 22:35

It's impossible to have an informed discussion when you keep using terminology you clearly don't understand and can't explain

Why do you keep saying this Betty? What is you think Pumper doesn't understand? And what is she not explaining?

It seems clear to me.

I actually find your posts incomprehensible. But you're entitled to a different view. Just perplexed by your aggression.

Almostascot · 09/05/2021 22:35

@WaltzingBetty But he can’t climb out of his car seat himself!!! So I have some work to do.

PinkElephant7 · 09/05/2021 22:36

I read somewhere that if they refuse to do something like put a coat on when it's cold, then just carry on and let them realise the consequence of that. Sounds like what your childminder did worked a treat!