AIBU to think schools shouldn't promote breast binding to 11 year old girls?

[OhHolyJesus]

Article in the Times today about a top grammar school.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/913e7f94-b038-11eb-b844-593e41a4a1a5?shareToken=96489378584664b8e46495232a22b86a

From the comments you can see the parents weren't aware.

Why are you and your school acilitating self harm @Washimal ?

What are you on about?? This is exactly what I mean. It's impossible to have a balanced discussion about this because people (on both side of the debate) always jump to extremes. I am not "facilitating" anything, how exactly do you think schools should stop children wearing binders? Why do you think it's the school's responsibility or that they even have the legal powers to do so?

Nowhere have I said that I condone or agree with the practice of breast binding, or that I think the school referenced in the OP have done the right thing. I simply challenged a post claiming that kids who are binding can't even be able to go for a walk and are basically house-bound. Apparently that means I'm advocating self-harm .

And while I'm here:

'There are a number of potential side effects of chest binding that people should pay attention to and, if necessary, see a doctor for. If people bind their chests too tightly in ways that compress their ribs, they can experience chest pain and difficulty breathing. They may also experience back pain or difficulty participating in sports and other activities.

Binders that do not allow the skin to breathe can lead to rashes and skin breakdown, which may require medical attention. Binding too tightly can also lead to neurological symptoms, such as numbness.2

Depending on the type of binder used, it may, rarely, lead to gastrointestinal symptoms or damage to the ribs and shoulders.1 Individuals with large chests are more likely to experience skin breakdown and rashes in general, as well as with chest binding specifically. They may also be more likely to experience other symptoms, including pain.

Duration and frequency of binding also affect the likelihood of having symptoms. People who bind more often and for longer periods are more likely to experience binding-related issues. However, the vast majority of people who bind their chests regularly will experience symptoms at some point in their lives.2 '

Sorry, forgot to put source: www.verywellhealth.com/chest-binding-5084078

To see a teacher saying "all the girls who bind don't have any problems" in such a blasé way is horrifying.

I absolutely did not say anything of the sort. You are twisting my words. I said that I have known plenty of students who have been able to participate in sport whilst wearing a binder. That doesn't mean that there aren't kids out there who have had issues, obviously. I was simply challenging the notion that binders make any physical activity at all (even going for a walk as was stated) impossible. The fact that I have known students be able to play sports safely in a binder (with regular rest-breaks, proper supervision and taking extra care in hot weather) obviously does not mean I think it's all perfectly okay! That is 100% your assumption.

Another study on breast/chest binding:

www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/13691058.2016.1191675

'a staggering 97.2 percent of those surveyed reported at least one negative health outcome that they attributed to binding. Seventy-four percent reported pain-related concerns—the most common side effect was back pain (53.8 percent), followed by overheating (53.5 percent), chest pain (48.8 percent), shortness of breath (46.6 percent), and itching (44.9 percent). Fifty respondents even believed they had suffered from rib fractures as a result of binding.'

(From a Vice article discussing the study above)

www.vice.com/en/article/7xzpxx/chest-binding-health-project-inside-landmark-overdue-transgender-study

The fact that I have known students be able to play sports safely in a binder (with regular rest-breaks, proper supervision and taking extra care in hot weather) obviously does not mean I think it's all perfectly okay! That is 100% your assumption

If they are having to take regular breaks and be careful when it gets hot more than students without binders then you jusy completely contradicted yourself. They clearly cant because they are having to stop and rest. You are having to.alter the lesson to accommodate it.

And why do they need extra supervision? Of its safe and doesn't restrict their abilities to join in the class ?

Do you not find it concerning that you have encountered not just one but apparently "plenty" of young women who are doing this to their bodies? Does that not suggest something going very wrong in our culture?

Yes, very. That's exactly why I think it's so important to challenge sweeping generalisations, exaggerations or inaccuracies in the way we discuss these things, so that perfectly sensible and valid concerns are not dismissed as hysteria or blind prejudice.

[quote ArabellaScott]'A tightly laced corset could reduce lung capacity, irritate skin, and weaken back and chest muscles used to being supported.2 Whether tight lacing caused long-term health issues, like reduced pelvis size, constipation and digestive issues, and reproductive problems ranging from miscarriage to uterine prolapse, is more difficult to assess and remains unclear.2,4,7'

nyamcenterforhistory.org/2015/05/29/did-corsets-harm-womens-health/[/quote]
Yes, I understood that Victorian and Edwardian women had all kinds of problems because of the practice of tight lacing of corsets. Breathlessness and fainting, but also damage to internal organs.

Whatwouldscullydo again, my words are being twisted. I didn't say "binding is perfectly safe". I simply said that girls who are binding can participate, I am saying we can ensure they are safe with adjustments in place. That absolutely doesn't mean I think its all fine or okay (as I have already stated), but there's only so much I'm willing to repeat myself.

If they are having to take regular breaks and be careful when it gets hot more than students without binders then you jusy completely contradicted yourself. They clearly cant because they are having to stop and rest. You are having to.alter the lesson to accommodate it.

Well yes...

So washimal, are you saying that your students usually all need breaks etc. or you have to make accommodations for some students who may or may not be wearing binders?

As a parent of a teen, I have not noticed that they get breaks during sports training or games. And certainly did not during dance, skating or any other sport lessons. Unless, of course it is 35 degrees and they are playing outside. Is the extreme heat the conditions you are referring to for them needing a break.

No you said you have known them to be able to participate safely in sports..I response to my point that ot could further isolate a child.

But said safe participation involves breaks and supervision and getting out of the heat. So either the entire lesson is altered to accommodate this or these kids really do end up sat inside cooling off and catching their breath while the others carry on. Which confirms they are isolated from the others at times.

And what kind of lesson adaptation is required ?

I mean its bad enough that many scholls already have different sports for girls amd boys doesn't this just mean that girls will be stuck only doing non contact sports or sports that don't involve running around alot. That sounds realky boring amd.restrictive and shit for girls who would enjoy football and rugby amd all the stuff the boys get to do.

Is the extreme heat the conditions you are referring to for them needing a break.

Potentially, yes.

Clearly, I shouldn't have commented as the thread has now been massively de-railed. PE staff make adjustments for many different reasons. In most cases where a student is binding adjustments wouldn't even be needed, by proper supervision I mean staff would simply keep an eye on the student to monitor for any signs that they were struggling so they could be advised to take a break if necessary. Obviously it is hugely dependant on the nature of the activity (high or low impact), weather conditions and duration of the activity.

For the final time, I am not advocating binding as a safe, reasonable or desirable practice. I do not "facilitate children self-harming" (vile and offensive suggestion) and schools have no powers whatsoever to ban children from binding.

@80sMum

This would have been unthinkable just a few years ago. Nowadays, I sometimes feel as though I have been transported to a parallel universe. What is going on?

I fear for the future and what kind of world it will be when my grandchildren are adults.

I find it all deeply disturbing and utterly depressing.

I agree, the world has gone mad. Oh for the simpler days of the 70s, not perfect but none of this nonsense.

Washimal, according to Mermaids people shouldn't exercise at all while wearing a binder.

'Avoid exercising in your binder, especially during sunlight hours. If you need to exercise and can’t do this without your binder, wait until the sun has gone down and the temperature has dropped. Always take water with you. It is advised that you don’t exercise in your binder, even when it’s cold outside, so be careful that you can breathe properly and aren’t getting lightheaded. '

mermaidsuk.org.uk/news/summer-binder-safety-tips/

doesn't this just mean that girls will be stuck only doing non contact sports or sports that don't involve running around alot.

Not in my school. No idea what happens in other schools.

That sounds realky boring amd.restrictive and shit for girls who would enjoy football and rugby amd all the stuff the boys get to do.

Agreed.

So you concede it can well be a very isolating thing for the students ?

They do indeed need to possibly sent inside away from the other kids.

So if the staff are busy watching those students then that must conflict with the ability to also help the other kids. So potentially some will not be able to participate fully as instead of being offered help akd guidenve to learn or play the staff are supervising the binding kids ajd taking them inside?

I mean, it's Mermaids, I've no idea where they got the info from, but presumably as an organisation that ostensibly is there to support children who wear binders, I am presuming that they got their info/advice from somewhere reputable, and didn't just make it all up.

ArabellaScott thank you for the information but as I've said, schools cannot prevent kids from wearing binders. There are many things that are inadvisable but still happen.

I understand that, but perhaps if children are wearing binders they should not take part in exercise? I don't know, just passing the info on in case it's of use.

Whatwouldscullydo this is getting tedious now. I don't need to "concede" anything, because I'm not arguing with anyone! All I said was it's misleading to claim that kids who wear binders are all confined to their homes unable to so much as go for a walk. I had no idea that statement would prove to be so controversial!

I understand that, but perhaps if children are wearing binders they should not take part in exercise? I don't know, just passing the info on in case it's of use.

Oh I know you were, I wasn't being sarcastic when I said thanks for the info. For what it's worth I agree, that is probably what should happen but schools cannot simply exclude kids from sport. They would be accused of discrimination.

@Washimal

doesn't this just mean that girls will be stuck only doing non contact sports or sports that don't involve running around alot.

Not in my school. No idea what happens in other schools.

That sounds realky boring amd.restrictive and shit for girls who would enjoy football and rugby amd all the stuff the boys get to do.

Agreed.

Depressingly, even if girls overcome the hurdles of being able to exercise with a binder they’d probably find any achievements in sport removed by boys identifying as girls anyway.

There’s really no way to win as a girl at the moment. To be ‘trans’ means hurting and mutilating yourself (boys just say they’re girls). You can’t literally win at sport either because that hurts male feelings.

Sounds like schools are in a terrible position then. Can't stop girls from wearing binders, can't stop them from exercising - what happens when they pass out or do themselves an injury? Nobody is going to take responsibility for keeping girls healthy and safe. It's depressing.