That women shouldn’t be forced into silence over males competing in female sports

[Ikeasucks]

NEW Zealand has selected a 43 yr old transwoman to represent them in the Olympics in the women’s weightlifting competition. Female athletes feel they are being forced into silence on the issue. How did it come to this?

www.reuters.com/lifestyle/sports/females-told-be-quiet-transgender-issue-ex-weightlifter-2021-05-07/

Yes. I was pleased to see you point out that it was a revolting porn spam link, rather than a trenchant defence of weightlifting as a sport where strength is of minimal importance. I wonder where our usual colleagues who accuse us of talking about unreal prejudice are.

I am of the view that sex is a biological reality, and gender a social construct which layers assumptions and stereotypes onto biological sex, so perhaps see things through this lens.

Totally agree with this and also describe gender as a social construct.

A male in a dress is only said to be identifying as a female because social norms dictate they don't wear dresses.

But medieval times they did permanently. And no one has ever suggested a Scottish make in a kilt is trans.

It's like when very oversight people don't have a Robles with their weight. Just because they don't identify as obese doesn't medically make them not so!

Well it's interesting because their usual argument is where are the trans athletes, if they had an advantage they'd clean up.
If they play the long game and have trans athletes purposefully lose this Olympics they'll secure men in women's sports for the long term.
It'll come down to whether they can resist personal glory.

Twitter I should have just quoted the whole post because I totally agree.

@DrSbaitso

I'd love to see the third "open" space for everyone who truly thinks sex doesn't matter and will put their money where their mouth is. The response to it will tell us volumes.

How long do you reckon it'll last?

I like this!

@RebeccaOfSunnyHellFarm

That was weird *@aliseia*. It's almost like you deliberately posted a porn link so it would get deleted and then you could claim awful transphobia later.

It's a bot/troll deleted all over MN today.

@Letsgetreadytocrumble

Transgender athletes should absolutely be able to compete with the gender that they identify with.

Why? Why should they be able do this?

Women's sports don't exist just so that males who don't want to compete against other males can go in the women's category instead. That's not what women's sport is for.

Agree .

@RebeccaOfSunnyHellFarm

Well it's interesting because their usual argument is where are the trans athletes, if they had an advantage they'd clean up. If they play the long game and have trans athletes purposefully lose this Olympics they'll secure men in women's sports for the long term. It'll come down to whether they can resist personal glory.

Yes, and this is why ideally we wouldn't use individual examples to prove or disprove fairness.

I'm absolutely sure that some women can beat some transwomen in some categories hands-down.

This doesn't mean that transwomen should therefore be allowed in women's sports, because it's not just about who wins, it's about who is allowed to have a place to compete in the first place.

When a male takes a place of a woman, she has lost out - and that will feed all the way down the chain to the beginnings where juniors are put off from the start.

No provisos, no equivocation, no exceptions: male or female.

Yes, this means that some people will lose out on their individual chances at validation and glory. But then again, that's life, and they seem happy to deprive others of these chances.

Sharp was treated absolutely appallingly because she spoke out about Semenya. Half the entire sports bulletin dedicated to a British runner failing to advance from the heats. It is no wonder she refuses to engage with such negativity

I didn't know that, although I have seen tweets about her "white girl tears" but most of the reaction I saw was Scottish nationalists.

However, she's not been taken off UKA funding or censured by the UK governing body.

In today's Sunday Times there is an article about women being disciplined by their employers for so-called transphobia if they eg ask for female loos.

A reminder again: Charisma Amoe-Tarrant is the most likely woman who has missed out (with the proviso that I can’t find accurate recent rankings).

The question needs to be put to the IOC and the weightlifting organisation: what qualifies Hubbard to enter the women’s competition in the first place, before levels of testosterone are even considered? All there is is Hubbard’s self-declaration of identity as a woman. They should be made to publicly explain how Hubbard meets the definition of woman, without using a circular argument.

This is why third spaces/completions or making the men’s competition “open” is not acceptable; if you protect the women’s competition with accurate sex-based definitions, it says to these individuals “you do not meet the definition of woman” and as such, completely invalidates their identity. It’s all or nothing in terms of validation. If women suffer as a result, that’s way down on the list of priorities. The lack of empathy is considerable.

@OwlBeThere

For people who feel silenced I hear about how everyone on mumsnet feels about trans women every 5 mins.

MN is the only place you can say anything about it, although you can say something on the Times comments pages if you word things carefully.

@looptheloopinahulahoop

Sharp was treated absolutely appallingly because she spoke out about Semenya. Half the entire sports bulletin dedicated to a British runner failing to advance from the heats. It is no wonder she refuses to engage with such negativity

I didn't know that, although I have seen tweets about her "white girl tears" but most of the reaction I saw was Scottish nationalists.

However, she's not been taken off UKA funding or censured by the UK governing body.

In today's Sunday Times there is an article about women being disciplined by their employers for so-called transphobia if they eg ask for female loos.

I believe that the UK athletics elite performance athletes contracts and lottery funding contracts have been rewritten even more tightly since the furore over Lynsey Sharp's really quite mild comments.

Which is a shame really as Lynsey's degree included a thesis on transwomen in sport and there literally seems no one better placed to comment.

But she has been treated well by UK athletics as they wanted to protect her and keep her focused on running well. The comments made about her and her "white tears" after finishing 6th in the Rio Olympics 800m final to 3 women who are now ineligible on the new IAAF testosterone rules were appalling. A lot of racism.

So to reiterate, if those rules on testosterone had applied in Rio, Lynsey would have an Olympic bronze medal. I am pretty sure UK Athletics realise that and there was no question of her being dropped from funding, simply a recognition that social media is evolving all the time and is a negative exierience for many.

There should be a 3rd category where people who don't fit into the male or female sex categories can still compete. It would be great if more athletes, both male and female spoke out about this. The worse thing to come from the next generation is the whole woke cancel culture. Free speech is being eroded right in front of us and if you dare to speak out, you get called transphobic and have varoious threats levelled against you. A biological male has distinct physical and biological advantage over a biological female so a trans male competing in a female category has an unfair advantage. If you can support his or her needs to identify as a woman and protect his or her mental health why can you not protect the years of sacrifice women and prejudice women have had to face to be allowed to compete in sports?

When I hear of such views often coming from young women of today I really despair. It seems as if they have completely forgotten the years of prejudice women have faced to be recognised. They often take the rights afforded to them today with a pinch of salt and don't appreciate the gravity of the sacrifices made by women before them so they could enjoy those rights. Trans rights are important but not at the detriment of the rights of women!

If you can support his or her needs to identify as a woman and protect his or her mental health why can you not protect the years of sacrifice women and prejudice women have had to face to be allowed to compete in sports?

Because women have always been expected to be the ones to take the shit for everyone else (the fact that trans women even now are being prioritised over natal women is, ironically, proof that we can indeed still tell the difference when it matters), so why should that change now?

I mean, even people who just want to ask for respect and more discussion are coming to Mumsnet to call for it rather than Twitter and social media. What does that tell you?

In today's Sunday Times there is an article about women being disciplined by their employers for so-called transphobia if they eg ask for female loos.

I will look out for this article.

Only last week my public sector employer released its transgender policy to staff. In there it says trans people can use the toilets of the gender they identify and that objecting to this is discrimination and will be a disciplinary matter.

Most of the policy was fine, basically about how the organisation will support trans people but also about what behaviour towards trans people would be a disciplinary matter.

The issue around objecting to toilet usage being a disciplinary matter made me really uncomfortable but I’m not senior enough or confident enough to question this. I like and need to keep my job

Back to the subject of sports, I thought what a pp said about sports should be safe, fair, and inclusive. We should not put inclusivity above fairness or safety. And in reality, allowing trans women to compete against born women is certainly not inclusive to all

I don’t understand how fairness seems to be the overriding concern of the paraolympics yet is just brushed aside when considering the issue of trans women in the olympics

A couple of links from the US based running discussion group, LetsRun, which also allows anonymous posting and therefore discussion of the trans issue in sport:

www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=10573501

Its quite an issue in the US as different States can make different rules, so there is a lot of discussion.

One elite US former female runner, Nikki Hiltz, has just come out as transgender, although she is either male or female and not fixed. It remains unclear in which division she would seek Olympic or national selection, as all her results have been in female only races and she would be ineligible on times to compete for male elite selection (she would'nt be fast enough).

It does raise the interesting question as to whether such an athlete could legally take testosterone supplements but still race against women, as the permitted IAAF limit on testosterone is several times higher than that ever naturally recorded in any woman athlete. Such an athlete, who is gender fluid, could then identify as female on the day of the race, whilst having taken testosterone enhancing drugs in a way which would not be permitted for a female athlete and only permitted for a trans athlete.

There is no suggestion from Nikki that she might actually do this, I'm simply pontificating on the possible outcomes in the future.

runningmagazine.ca/the-scene/elite-u-s-runner-nikki-hiltz-comes-out-as-transgender/

Certainly, the case of June Eastwood and her compatriots is now a bit infamous in the US, as the children's division in their state has been dominated by former male children who win and place in most of the races for girls. June's mother is particularly pushy and protective of June's rights.

runningmagazine.ca/sections/runs-races/june-eastwood-to-become-first-transgender-woman-to-compete-in-ncaa-division-i-xc/

@FreakinFrankNFurter

In today's Sunday Times there is an article about women being disciplined by their employers for so-called transphobia if they eg ask for female loos.

I will look out for this article.

Only last week my public sector employer released its transgender policy to staff. In there it says trans people can use the toilets of the gender they identify and that objecting to this is discrimination and will be a disciplinary matter.

Most of the policy was fine, basically about how the organisation will support trans people but also about what behaviour towards trans people would be a disciplinary matter.

The issue around objecting to toilet usage being a disciplinary matter made me really uncomfortable but I’m not senior enough or confident enough to question this. I like and need to keep my job

Back to the subject of sports, I thought what a pp said about sports should be safe, fair, and inclusive. We should not put inclusivity above fairness or safety. And in reality, allowing trans women to compete against born women is certainly not inclusive to all

I don’t understand how fairness seems to be the overriding concern of the paraolympics yet is just brushed aside when considering the issue of trans women in the olympics

There's a link to it, and the letter it references in the EHRC thread

Making sense of the EHRC judicial review www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4239359-Making-sense-of-the-EHRC-judicial-review

Bambam2019 First of all I haven’t said they shouldn’t have to provide medical information?? Perhaps that was a different poster?

My apologies, that as another poster who brought up medical disclosure.

Yes because of male vilence. I respect your opinion on this, as everyone has different circumstances and experiences. Because if this I find this a difficult point to discuss. I do not want to invalidate your experiences by giving my own opinions, so on that point, I won’t.

Whilst I admire your take on this, the reality is that these topics must be discussed openly. It is not sufficient for trans people to demand something of women without proper open debate and consideration. That is what it means to participate in society. So while you may not want to discuss it, which is fair enough - can you not understand that all the salient points need looking at, and consideration must be taken of the impact on all sides.

I was making that point because sometimes threads like this can become a place for general transgender bashing.

Women should be able to discuss the impact on our spaces and our place in society without the accusation of transphobia being hurled at every turn.
Women wanting to maintain single sex spaces is not hateful, and to label it as such is misguided and naive. The vast majority of us are not 'transgender bashing' anyone, we are frustrated and angry that once again women's spaces and places are being ceded to biological males without our consent.
Just because some people deem that hateful, doesn't make it so.

Good to see so much agreement on this!

Women should be able to discuss the impact on our spaces and our place in society without the accusation of transphobia being hurled at every turn.
Women wanting to maintain single sex spaces is not hateful, and to label it as such is misguided and naive. The vast majority of us are not 'transgender bashing' anyone, we are frustrated and angry that once again women's spaces and places are being ceded to biological males without our consent.
Just because some people deem that hateful, doesn't make it so.

YY.

In reality, the goal posts of what constitutes transphobia will be shifted around whether you try to be a good ally or not.

Women's sports are worth defending. This is a hill I am willing to die on. We're living in a time where childhood obesity is an epidemic. We need to be inspiring and encouraging young girls into sports. Being active is so important for physical and mental health, just look at how people who couldn't do sports and proper exercise in the pandemic has had. One of the most talented young women in my chosen sport commited suicide in lockdown and I don't doubt being cut off from her passion was a factor.
We should value women's sports so much more. We've had to fight for every club, every competition even for the leisure time to have time dedicated to sport over caring responsibilities and people are so careless with it they're given away precious opportunities to men.
Fuck that.

Agh I meant to quote the pp. Bold fail.

@RebeccaOfSunnyHellFarm - I'm applauding everything you have said.

Women should be able to discuss the impact on our spaces and our place in society without the accusation of transphobia being hurled at every turn.

Absolutely. I'm so sick of being insulted. So I started putting my foot down about it. DS has done a 180, interestingly.

Charisma Amoe-Tarrant is a Nauruan-born Australian weightlifter. She competed in the women's +90 kg event at the 2018 Commonwealth Games, winning the silver medal for Nauru. Amoe-Tarrant was selected for the Australian team at the Pacific Games held in Samoa in 2019, winning a bronze medal for the +87 kg snatch.
Born: 26 May 1999 (age 21 years)
Height: 1.65 m
Weight: 100 kg

Laurel Hubbard

Weightlifting
Birth Date: 09 Feb 1978
Place of Birth: AUCKLAND
Country of birth: NZL
Age: 40
Gender: FemaleHeight (cm): 185
Weight (Kg): 130

Here's the (possible) female athlete who will have missed out on the opportunity of her lifetime at 21 years old. That is 21 years of training, dreaming and sacrificing to be the best.
To have her chance stolen at the last minute by the individual above.

It's heartbreaking. 💔